Site Search:
 
Get TEFL Certified & Start Your Adventure Today!
Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

How hard is Turkish to learn compared with other languages?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Turkey
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ghost



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1693
Location: Saudi Arabia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:32 pm    Post subject: How hard is Turkish to learn compared with other languages? Reply with quote

Turkish is considered a medium/hard language to learn in comparison with other languages.

It is thought that a student with average aptitude can reach level-2 speaking proficiency in Turkish with 720 hours of instruction.

"Easier languages" like French, Italian, Spanish etc...require approximately 480 hours of instruction to reach level-2 speaking proficiency.

Group 4 includes the hardest languages, and they include Arabic, Chinese, Japanese and Korean. They require at least 1320 hours of instruction to reach just level 1 plus....

Check the following website for the full story.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~wbaxter/howhard.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
FGT



Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 762
Location: Turkey

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easiest language for whom? Doesn't it depend on what your first language is and what other (foreign) languages you've already mastered?

Would a Martian find French easier than Turkish and Arabic more difficult than either?

What about Turkish learners? How would they classify them?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ghost



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1693
Location: Saudi Arabia

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:31 am    Post subject: reply Reply with quote

Quote:
Easiest language for whom? Doesn't it depend on what your first language is and what other (foreign) languages you've already mastered?

Would a Martian find French easier than Turkish and Arabic more difficult than either?

What about Turkish learners? How would they classify them


The guide is designed for people who possess English as their mother tongue.

720 hours for Turkish would be about 9 months of study at Tomer Institute of Languages....and this is true.....because all students at Tomer achieve fluency in Turkish after and around the 8th course or level...Each course lasts for one month, and is usually 4 hours a day....At Tomer, there is an exam every month....if you fail, you do not move on...simple.

People vary a lot in their ability to learn languages, and the motivation factor should be taken into consideration.

We have all seen EFL teachers, who have resided in Turkey for years - yet speak little or no Turkish. On the other hand, other teachers have achieved pretty good levels in Turkish within one year.

Ghost only spent 6 months in Turkey (2003/2004) and most Turks he met assumed ghost had resided in the country for years....and of course that was the best compliment he could receive, because it reinforced his theories about motivation being the most important factor in learning foreign languages effectively. The two months spent at Tomer were the key......the structure and constant drills did pay off.....even though initially, ghost thought the course top heavy in grammar....but in retrospect, it was the best way to learn Turkish....which you will learn effectively if you learn and practice the rules....biliyorsunuz...

Arabs who move to Israel, usually learn Hebrew to fluent level within a few months....the same could not be said for Jews who move or live in Arab countries......motivation.....

When ghost travelled in Morocco (January/February 1996) he met many young boys and men who were conversationally competent in about 6-8 languages, including English, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Dutch.

In Marrakesh....it was funny to see the Moroccan carpet guys speak very good level Japanese! - yeah....motivation has a positive effect on memory retention.

1994...Manilla/Philippines....ghost travelled to the Philippines and met a few expats who were quite fluent in Tagalog...thanks to the new girlfriends/wives they met there, and ghost himself achieved pretty good conversational ability himself in Tagalog.....

At McGill University, the students in the Department of Asian Languages who do the semester abroad in China, come back with vastly improved levels of Mandarin Chinese.

The problem with arabic, is that classical arabic is so different from the variety of the language (vernacular) spoken in the street. And to this day, ghost has never met a westerner who was fluent in Arabic.....but he has met many westerners who were fluent in languages like Mandarin, Japanese, Korean. This is why most teachers who teach in the Middle East and the Gulf, learn little arabic in the time they are there. Exacerbating this apprentissage (or the lack thereof) is the fact that in most of the countries in which arabic is spoken the people you interact with will want to practice their English and French with you......

The easiest Asian language to learn is Bahasa Indonesian....which is very phonetic, easy to pronounce....

Sad to see many teachers in Turkey missing the opportunity to learn the language to a decent level, and anyone who has resided in Turkey for at least one year....should know enough Turkish to at least function at a conversational level for most of the daily life situations she/he faces.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
monkel



Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Posts: 37
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

apprentissage?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
molly farquharson



Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 839
Location: istanbul

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think learning any other language depends on one's exposure to other languages and the willingness to learn the new language. I taught in Japan, so I had some experience with a totally foreign language (this after learning French, German and Latin in high school and beyond, and acquiring some Spanish). I was able to "turn the switch" to realize that Japanese did not have the same syntax as my own language, so it was a little easier to start on Turkish (they are also in the same language family, with a few odd shared words-- iyi/ii being one).

Also, some people are just not language learners, as you have probably experienced in some of your classes. I have a tin ear for music and I am mathematically challenged, so I can relate to different talents.

Also, I have read, and found this for myself, that when a person has learned a second (or third, etc) language, when the person starts to learn the next one, the previously learned language starts to come out. I had Spanish coming out of my mouth in Japan (at least the sound systems are similar) and Japanese coming out of my mouth here (at least the syntax is similar). Interesting, huh?

My feeling about learning or acquiring Turkish here is that it is disrespectful and impolite to not even try to learn the language of the place where you reside. Also, it isolates you. And finally, if we are to be good role models for our students, we should be language learners too. It helps remind us of the problems of learning a language and certainly makes us more sympathetic. The best thing I ever did to improve my Turkish was to renovate a house and have to speak Turkish to the workers. My house vocabulary got pretty good-- Krashen's theory partly supported.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dmb



Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
student with average language aptitude
Is there such a thing(quoted from the lnk Ghost gave)
Quote:
ghost has never met a westerner who was fluent in Arabic
I've met many(in countries where Arabic is L1(almost)). I'm not one of them
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dmb



Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ghost, there is a thread on the general middle East forum called 'Learning Arabic' You might find it of interest.
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=12225&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ghost



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1693
Location: Saudi Arabia

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:18 pm    Post subject: Arabic - a difficult language to learn Reply with quote

Quote:
I've met many(in countries where Arabic is L1(almost)). I'm not one of them


One doubts that the foreigners you are referring to were really fluent in Arabic...they may have had some conversational abiltity at the street/vernacular level, but one doubts they were really fluent.....

In fact, all the Professors one has met, who teach Classical Arabic, have told one that it would take years of assiduous study to reach fluent level in Arabic, and most students do not have that kind of motivation.

One of the reasons foreigners improve so much in Asian Languages like Mandarin, Korean and Japanese is that when they teach in those countries, they are surrounded by natives, most of whom speak no English...and obviously, that total immersion package (aside from the teaching) reaps big rewards.....

Arabs, in general, are phenomenal linguists, and in most countries, even under developed ones like Yemen....will have plenty of people speaking differing levels of English, French or German......they will not give you a chance to practice your arabic.....making a total immersion situation difficult to achieve in those countries.

Ghost wanted to study Arabic in 1996 for one year and registered at the University of Amman (Jordan)...but left after a week, because he was given precious little opportunity to practice arabic outside of class...all of the people ghost met in Amman insisted on speaking English. Ghost then moved to Cairo and Alexandria (Egypt), and in that country, ghost encountered problems to practice the language, also.

You cannot pick up arabic, by osmosis, by simply living in an arab country. Proof of that is in evidence when you meet people in France who have lived for 20 to 30 years in the Maghreb countries (Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco), yet for all those years they lived in those countries.....none of them learned any arabic, beyond the odd greeting.....sad, but true.

Madame Farquharson is correct in stating that EFL teachers in Turkey, and elsewhere, would be guilty of a form of disrespect to the students, by not at least attempting to learn some of the language....and Turkish, as you can see by the comparison chart, is not really a very difficult language to learn.

What presents problems for students of Turkish, is the vast vocabulary which has to be painstakingly learned.....and that takes a lot of time. But achieving Elementary 1 and 11 level in Turkish should not be a problem for any teacher devoting a couple of hours a day to the language (not necessarily formal learning).

When ghost taught English at the top Private Kolej in Antalya (2003), he was quite impressed with the level of Turkish spoken, by the few teachers who had taught in that school. It should be noted that all of the foreign teachers who spoke good Turkish, had husbands/wives/partners who were Turkish....and they lived in typically Turkish surroundings with large extended families and neighbors...

In the language schools, sadly, many EFL teachers in Turkey elect not to bother learning Turkish, because they are only passing through....but that is a mistake...and this type of laziness will not help them when they move on to other endeavours.......
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dmb



Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
One doubts that the foreigners you are referring to were really fluent in Arabic
Honestly Ghost they were fluent. Obviously this opinion isn't mine as I speak... well no Arabic. But on many occasions colleagues(UK/US/ AUS nationals) who had learned Arabic(by studying at university or living many years in Aabic speaking countries) had to come in to my class and give various announcements in Arabic. Me being me always asked the students how the teachers' Arabic was. THe students would then debate if the accent was more Yemini or Kuwaiti.(in Arabic of course, but one of the smarter kids would always translate for me)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ghost



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1693
Location: Saudi Arabia

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:13 pm    Post subject: reply Reply with quote

One has the feeling that the few foreign teachers who learn arabic are exceptions.....and one has met quite a few teachers and others who have worked in the Middle East and Gulf States....and none of them learned anything worth shouting home about.

And you are proof - DMB -, that simply living in an Arab country will not produce any results in arabic being learned. It takes a concerted effort over a lengthy period of time.

People get thrown off by the arabic script, but paradoxically - learning the arabic characters should not be a problem, because there are just 28 of them, and can be learned within a few weeks or less (compared with thousands of characters to master in Chinese or Japanese).

Ghost has met a lot of people who could read arabic, but did not understand what they were reading.....mostly muslims and converted muslims reading the Koran.

It is just that the arabic script appears so alien, which throws people off.

By the way ...in countries like Morocco - 35% of the males are considered illiterate, and 60% of the females....

It would be interesting to know, the reasons as to why DMB learned no arabic during the time spent in arab speaking countries. Was it just inertia, or some sort of basic self fulfilling prophecy telling one that one could not learn, taking place?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Byzantine



Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 55
Location: Southwest

PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:41 am    Post subject: Disrespect Reply with quote

Quote:
Madame Farquharson is correct in stating that EFL teachers in Turkey, and elsewhere, would be guilty of a form of disrespect to the students, by not at least attempting to learn some of the language


Wrong. I've had this argument with folks before. You're forcing your own view on to those of others. You think it is disrespectful, and thus it is. It's not nearly that easy.

Let's suppose a foreigner moved to the states. Said foreigner could speak foreignese, but he could not speak English. Let's say I could speak a smattering of foreignese, and I realized that this person enjoyed being in the States, seeing it, learning what he could about the people, etc. If this person didn't learn the language, I wouldn't be offended. That, in my opinion, would make me a fairly shallow person.

There are many ways to show respect...a genuine interest in the country being one of them...even if the yabanci could only manage a gorooosuroooz on the plane ride out.

My Turkish was lousy. But I think I know where my Turkish friends would come down on the matter of "disrespect" if the comparison between my Turkish and Ghost's included his thoughts on the country and culture.


Last edited by Byzantine on Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dmb



Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397

PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It would be interesting to know, the reasons as to why DMB learned no arabic during the time spent in arab speaking countries.
Fair enough question.
I think it is mainly motivation. When I arrıved in the Gulf I was a TEFLtastic, runnıng dictation, have students run around the classroom teacher trainer. The place where I worked just wasn't this sort of place( more babysitting). I don't mind admitting I went through extreme culture shock(related more to job) So from my very first day of work( 5 hours after arriving in the country) I had a negative attitude with regard to the local culture. This negative attitude resurfaced again and again. Away from work I actually enjoyed Qatar. I had a great group of friends and I did loads of sport. However, qatar is a very segregated culture. (ın Arabic restaurants there is a different door for Westerners and as a single male you can't go to the supermarket at certain times on certain days!) It is openly racist against westerners. At work the same thing happened. As a westerner you got the crappy timetable whereas the arabic teachers got the cushy timetable and promoted into management. Although 95 % of the teachers were westerners only Arabs were ever promoted. That is just the way of life. That is the culture. It was a culture I didn't really relate to and so I had no motivation to learn Arabic. I did learn very basic Arabic and classroom language(thanks to Turkish knowledge)I also learned how to swear quite fluently- from my students.
Another reason I didn't learn is because the lingua franca is pigeon English. The population of Qatar is about 500,000. 100,000 Qataris, 100,000 western expats and 300,00 TCNs. In your everyday life at the shops, the hotels, the sports clubs or wherever the people working there are non Arab TCNs. So English is used. I know of no one who socialised with the locals. It just wasn't done. Arabic culture is one of respect and politeness to foreigners. But kept at a distance. The people I knew who spoke Arabic usually picked it up in Oman, Yemen or Egypt. The non oil rich countries.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ghost



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1693
Location: Saudi Arabia

PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:03 pm    Post subject: disinterested language learners Reply with quote

Quote:
There are many ways to show respect...a genuine interest in the country being one of them...even if the yabanci could only manage a gorooosuroooz on the plane ride out.


Yes - but if said Yabanci had a "genuine interest in the country" then one is sure the yabanci in question would have at least attempted to learn the basics of the language enough to communicate with Turks on a daily basis.

If you are interested in Turkey, you will want to integrate, and essential to that integration is communication....of the spoken variety.

Foreigners who really want to integrate know that learning Turkish to a decent level is essential....and not doing so would suggest a basic lack of interest.

Sticking to the English language for all your social needs is a cop out, because you will miss out on so many occasions when Turkish is used. By sticking solely to English, when you are in the presence of Turks - this will mark you out as an honorary guest in Turkey, and not fully integrated.

There is really no excuse for not trying to learn the new language(Turkish), but so many teachers who pass through learn little or no Turkish in the time they are there. This, in itself, speaks volumes about the real status of these "language teachers." A genuine teacher of languages should have an intrinsic interest and curiosity about learning a new language, especially one as esoteric as Turkish. And the fact that many of these teachers do not take advantage of the extraordinary opportunity, indicates that they are not really language learners ...

And if you are not a language learner yourself, you will be less effective in your job as a teacher, because you will have less empathy and understanding with regard to where the students of English are coming from and their backgrounds and difficulties.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
molly farquharson



Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 839
Location: istanbul

PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with ghost that learning the language makes one more respectful and more respected. How can you truly learn about the culture if you can't speak the language? We are all yabanci and always will be, but I know that if I did not speak Turkish, flawed as it is, there would be some people I couldn't be friends with, I would feel totally isolated, and it would be hard to keep up with the daily culture. I have learned so much in the past few years because my turkish has improved. Why? because I have friends who don't speak English. Assuming someone will be around to speak English is dangerous and somewhat arrogant.

Like ghost, I understand that a lot of teachers are here for only a year or two (as I had planned to be, now 8 yrs), so they are less interested in learning the language. At the same time, I have seen even short-term teachers trying to learn the language, and of course the students are delighted to teach their teachers.

Bottom line is, we are always guests here but language is communication and if we only teach our language without learning "their" language, we are not walking the talk, so to speak.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ghost



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1693
Location: Saudi Arabia

PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:08 pm    Post subject: shades of meaning Reply with quote

Quote:
Bottom line is, we are always guests here but language is communication and if we only teach our language without learning "their" language, we are not walking the talk, so to speak.


This is true, and also there are so many nuances in Turkish language which are difficult to translate/convey into English effectively.

M.F. talks about teachers in Turkey staying for one or two years....as a short time, but that time is plenty long enough to learn decent conversational Turkish.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Turkey All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Teaching Jobs in China
Teaching Jobs in China