Job Discussion Forums

[darkside1]

I have always rated subtitles over dubbing for foreign language films as a way of learning a language, but I was gobsmacked to see the Ken Loach film "Sweet Sixteen", set in the rough end of Greenock, near Glasgow and dealing with the local drugs economy, broadcast with ENGLISH subtitles on the BBC (in the UK) last Saturday night.

Now I know that Glaswegians have, ahem, a distinctive accent, but I have never, as far as I can remember, seen films about say Texan ranchers subtitled for an English speaking audience.

Does this happen within other world languages? Do subtitles (as opposed to dubbing) help language students learn a foreign language?

[zewd]

I've heard of some Americans trying to learn Japanese from subtitled anime. This seems like it would be hard since subtitles are rarely an exact translation of the dialogue (although usually closer to the original than dubbings.)

[thelmadatter]

I have picked up vocabulary items from watching English-languge stuff with Spanish subtitles and vice-versa. However, you got to take the translations with a big grain of salt. For example, if I relied solely on subtitles for learning bad words in Spanish, I would swear the only "groseria" in Spanish is "maldita sea" (be it cursed)

[dmb]

I've heard that Rab C Nesbit had subtitles in England and Trainspoting (Irvine Welsh) had subtitles in the states.

[dyak]

I saw a film on French TV in Qu�bec French that was subtitled into France French... the accent was very strong though.

[Guy Courchesne]

I've seen some Argentine and Spanish films subtitled for Mexicans...it might have to do more with speed. Mexicans talk real slow compared to Spaniards.

[matttheboy]

Watched 'y tu mama tambien' (mexico) the other day with my chilean girlfriend-she couldn't understand anything. Put the english subtitles on and hey presto, she gets it...I can't understand a word of TVE (spanish cable tv channel), however hard i try, all that stupid listhping...never had a problem with understanding scottish people, sometimes the irish and geordies make life tricky but never really been an issue.

Whilst in australia a couple of years ago i watched a few TV interviews with 'asylum seekers' who spoke almost perfect english with not particularly strong afgani/pakistani/indonesian accents who were subtitled. I took that as a way of undermining what they were saying though as opposed to making it 'easier' for the aussies to understand. I saw it more as subtle racism than anything else...maybe that's what scottish people feel about what the BBC did??

[Justin Trullinger]

Some American TV chanels have been broadcasting "East-Enders" with subtitles. So maybe it's racism, or at least mono-culturalism, but the Scots shouldn't feel too singled out.

[zaneth]

'Airplane' had two characters who spoke "jive" (called Ebonics, these days). They were subtitled. There's a great scene where Barbara Billingsly (Most famous for her role as June Cleaver, Beaver's mother) offers to translate for them "Uh, pardon me, but I speak Jive"

I tried watching a DVD of 'Gladiator' with English soundtrack and Russian subtitles. I found this best for practicing Russian. The English went into my head automatically supplying the meaning as I read the Russian. And I had the visual of the Russian to help me remember it. When I watched Chinese films with English subtitles it seemed that my brain skipped the Chinese and went straight for the subtitles.

I really need to buy that DVD player....

[matttheboy]

Eastenders may have subtitles in the US but how many co cknies (?) do americans come into contact with in everyday life? The UK is tiny and everyone moves around so much that most people have contact with a good mix of accents from an early age. Added to this the fact that on TV there are always loads of different accents in every drama, soap, chat show and none of these is subtitled. 'Coronation Street' is watched by millions all over the country but has mainly lancastrian accents, 'Eastenders' mainly london accents; no subtitles.

I don't remember 'Taggart' ever being subtitled either despite being set in Glasgow (or was it edinburgh?). Brookside must have been fairly hard for foreigners to understand but not for any british people. It just seems strange to me that the BBC took the decision to subtitle a British programme when almost everyone in Britain knows what a strong Scottish accent sounds like and can understand one if asked to do so...to me it seems a good way of marginalising a people by making out that the way they speak is unintelligible. That's what i thought when i saw the subtitles in Oz and this seems to be a similar example...just my thoughts though...

[darkside1]

I'd endorse what mattheboy is saying. As far as I'm concerned English is a global language with many distinct voices, and whether they are spoken by a crofter on Skye or a taxi driver in Jamaica they are all equally valid.

I would also admit to the common Scottish habit of people who've worked abroad or 'down south' as they say here of speaking in two voices: one less formal with a thicker accent for local consumption, and a second, clearer, more grammatically correct for 'export'. (Take anyone vaguely 'famous' on Brit tv as an example- Ally McCoist, Gordon Strachan- and compare them when they're interviewed on Scots channels).

BTW, listening to the way English is spoken today by people round me in Glasgow in their 20s and early 30s, there is definitely a shift towards a less pronounced accent with London and American influences, which as far as I'm concerned is just another facet of Globalistation, and not necessarily a 'bad' thing either.

[dmb]

[Magoo]

A lot of Chinese television programmes and films have subtitles-in Chinese-because of the plethora of dialects. My wife reads them even when the language is Mandarin. Pure habit.

[darkside1]

Thinking about this, maybe subtitles weren't such a bad idea if the film reached a wider audience. However, here's an anecdote.

One day I was on a bus that stopped near Barlinnie prison (that's where we put all the bad people who rob the posh houses in Edinburgh). An older guy got on, stinking of booze, filthy clothes, teeth missing. He was trying to engage me in 'dialogue' but I was having none of it. So he sat up the back of the bus and proceeded to rant away, the same thing over and over- I couldn't make out exactly what. After about 10 mins of listening to him it dawned on me that what he was saying was:

"There's nothing like a good hanging,
You can't beat a good hanging,
Hang them high!"

Although it sounded to me more like:

"There's nuthin' like a guid hingin'
Ye cannae beat a guid hingin'
Hing 'em haiyyy!"

(Perhaps he was refering to his former job, but I'm not sure).

So is that English or a different language entirely?