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moonraven
Joined: 24 Mar 2004
Posts: 3094
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 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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Since when is a reference in Google the last word?
You can find anything using a search engine. And I do mean anything. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:50 am Post subject: |
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Hard to believe that the subjunctive would elicit such strangeness amongst us.
Working from the OP example given, I can find nothing to show it being correct. Don't mistake my saying that as having anything to do with a particular nation's English. Since the OP example doesn't fit any of the past subjunctive examples or rules I've found...
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| The past subjunctive effectively relates only to the verb to be, where it takes the form were. It is used to express hypothetical states, and comes after the verbs wish and suppose, conjunctions such as if; if only; as; though; whether, and the phrases would rather and would that: I wish she were here; If I were you, I'd resign; Would that he were still alive. |
-for reference
and it certainly isn't in the if clause category, it can only be volitional, particularly given the I felt sick starter.. If it sat on its own as She suggested I went to the hospital, then it could be, like you say, volitional as reporting verb. Putting the OP example in context would of course clear this up.
The better question here would be whether to teach what is most common in the UK or what is most formal. It might be no one agrees with this, but I would always start with teaching the more formal or academic use, then work down to what's more commonly used. |
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ouyang
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 193
Location: on them internets
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| matttheboy wrote: |
| dyak wrote: |
| Guy wrote: |
| While I think we are preparing our students for the possibility of living abroad, I don't think we should prepare them with gutter English. Besides, think of the pride a foregin student would feel knowing they speak/use a better English than a good number of Brits |
This is the English they'll hear here, in shops, clubs, pubs, employment agencies... though it does sound like gutter English. Students always say to me, 'I learn English in my country for 5, 6, 7 years, i come here, i understand nothing, why teacher?' I don't have a definitive answer.
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... in everyday life people speak in the same way as the people around them and with whom they've grown up. Some of my friends from the south-west are total yokels and says things like, 'Piddletrenthide? Where's that to?', yet when they come round my house and meet my family they quite happily chat away in a more 'standard' form of english. ...
There are very few things i like about england but the massive variation in accents and dialects even between towns and villages just a couple of miles apart is one of them. I love being able to talk to someone and almost automatically know where they're from. |
I think the ability to understand different English accents, dialects, and registers is an advanced skill. I doubt many Brits would find communication easy in the rural southern states, but I'd expect them to do better than a rural southerner in the British Isles.
The more awareness of the variations in English that ESL teachers have, the better, so I think threads like this are helpful, but actually trying to teach students to understand them isn't a priority for me. If they come up in textbooks, songs and movies, it's good to be able to point them out and explain them.
Also, they're a good excuse to use words like ghastly. As in, Guy your avatar is ghastly, wherever did you find such an abominable photo? |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:54 am Post subject: |
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since when is a reference in Google the last word?
You can find anything using a search engine. And I do mean anything. |
True, even your posts would turn up!
It's not the last word of course. However it is the most convenient way of finding out whether a collocation is in common usage in written educated English.
| Quote: |
| Since the OP example doesn't fit any of the past subjunctive examples or rules I've found... |
The rule you've given is pretty messed up. The past subjunctive applies to all verbs, not just the verb 'be'. However as the verb 'to be' is the only one where the distinction is made the question is moot.
Whether 'went' is considered subjunctive or indicative here is of no importance. Anyway where you should be looking is at the rules for backshifting in reported speech. The construction with suggested is analagous.
As I have said, the exact construction is quoted in "A University Grammar of English". I haven't time to go to the library and check out "The Cambridge Grammar" but will post back when I do. However in linguistics as in other scientific fields authority is subservient to usage, and there are enough examples on the web of the usage in formal educated parlance for it to be clear that it is an acceptable variant. |
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Magoo
Joined: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 651
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:27 am Post subject: |
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Quoth Aramas:
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It seems that people tend to forget that grammar is only an imperfect model used to describe usage. Usage defines a language, not a flawed set of rules. There is grammar in poetry, but there is no poetry in grammar.
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Poetry in itself, dear boy. |
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Starglass1
Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 9
Location: The Amalfi Coast
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Please try to refrain from using �moreover� more than once in a post.
May I suggest an alternative such as furthermore, what is more, in addition, besides, additionally, or likewise.
Thank you for indulging me!
Now concerning the pairing of 'educated English'; how many of you consider it to be an anachronism or oxymoron? I guess it depends which country you're talking about.
________________________
Drink, Drank, Drunk.... Stink, Stank, Stunk!
Who says there's no poetry in grammar? |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| My English is very educated. I'm always giving it classes on what to say. |
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