Job Discussion Forums

[orangiey]

Hi
Old topic I know but a complete mine field !!!!

I am British but have no BA degree. I do have vocational/technical certs and will be doing the CELTA.

What type of visa can I get withthe above with a CELTA for China (ie can I get a Z?), as I have read people are teaching with a CELTA. but no degree. What are they using and how did they get it?

Regards[quote]
You only pass this way once-do it now not tomorrow.............[/quote]

[Talkdoc]

My friend - there are MANY foreigners (maybe the majority) teaching in China with No degree, No EFL certificate (of any kind) and NO prior teaching experience. Some are doing so by teaching with an F-Visa (it's not legal, but tolerated in many provinces). Others have produced fake degrees or work for private English language schools that have produced fake degrees for them. It's been suggested once by someone here that people teaching "pronunciation English" do not need a bachelor's degree for the Z-Visa but I have been unable to substantiate that; certainly, my FAO at a government university has never heard of that exception and there is no such exception stated by the SAFEA anywhere that I can find (and I looked, carefully).

The law of "supply and demand" seems to dictate what is tolerated, as well as permissible, in China. If a school wants or needs you badly enough, they will find a way to employ you, by hook or by crook. However, what you will find once you are here - especially if you've come over with or by questionable means, might not meet with your liking: but that's the chance that many seem to be willing to take (and several - perhaps many, have been relatively happy with the outcome: for whatever that is worth). Teaching in China with a real degree and commencing employment only with a Z-Visa certainly does not guarantee that one will be successful here or happy with one�s school, but doing so does significantly minimize the risk of having to later deal with more problems than one initially bargained for.

If you decide to teach here with no degree, you will have no choice but to work for a private English language school that will, one way or the other, find methods for skirting the law with and for you. If that is your decision, then take the time to do your homework; research the school very carefully before making a choice and come with enough money to support yourself for at least a couple of months and for return airfare home (especially if you come to work here without sponsorship, i.e., a Z-Visa). Be smart and safe: not sorry afterwards. Best of luck to you.

Doc

[Taishan]

Orangiey, OK, I've done the research, first we need to differentiate between 'foreign residency' and 'foreign expert' status and a 'Z-visa'. A 'Z-visa' is what the authorities give you in your passport, as we all know. 'Foreign Residency' and 'Foreign Expert' status is a later stage in the process, inside China.

You do officially need a BA degree our higher to get 'foreign residency' and 'foreign expert' status, this is a new rule as of 1st January 2005. This is a new rule and is not strictly enforced, and is in a 'grey' area. I suspect in some regions at least BA or Bsc diploma is a must to obtain a 'foreign residency' and 'foreign expert' status. In most places, (including where I am) any diploma or certificate (including a two week course on needlework) would be enough (as there is a big demand for teachers and they don't want to put up too many obsticles and/or can't tell the difference between a certificate and an actual BA diploma). In other places they aren't asking questions! Certainly most Chinese bosses that have the connections to get the Z-visa for you probably have the connections or means to avoid the need for providing documentation, if they wish. So just be honest about your qualifications, and a prospective future employer can tell you if you meet their requirements.

You certainly can still apply for and obtain a Z-visa without any proof of qualifications and these qualifications if they are asked for, are asked for at the stage when your new school would want to obtain for you your 'foreign residence permit' and 'foreign expert' status which is up to a month after entering China. It is certainly true however that universities will not employ people without a degree. (Unless they are employing younger people between school and university, through volunteer organisations).

In my opinion however, a CELTA is more than enough, it is actually a qualification in teaching English, a BA is not. People with CELTAs often make better teachers because they have the training. I must say that it's a very intense course, but you will be on very solid ground when students ask you questions about advanced grammar. In many countries these days a CELTA is enough and is more highly prized than a BA, it's certainly more relevant. Of course an Msc or Bsc in education is the most relevant qualification of all.

[tofuman]

CELTA training is an excellent introduction to the field of teaching English to speakers of other languages. The problem here is that much, if not most, of what you learn in CELTA will be difficult to apply in classes of 50 students or more.

CELTA suggests classes of no more than a dozen students so that each one is given adequate time to pronounce, understand, and practice new words or concepts. This approach is more or less impossible in classes of 50 students.

CELTA presumes that the students are highly motivated to learn and will actively participate in their excellent approach. Such is not the case here. Most students are very passive in the classroom and resist active participation; furthermore, they resist change of any kind. They can not understand or appreciate the concept of student centered teaching. They are, by training and culture, unable to participate in student centered classroom experiences.

Very little expertise is required here. I teach in a high school environment, generally not the brightest students, but good "kids."
My FAO told me to not even bother acquiring any qualification as an English teacher. I did it for my own benefit, but found that the most important concept, grading, did not require weeks of a high stress environment. As a person without English teaching experience or linguistics knowledge, I found some of the CELTA material baffling.

Of course, I can appreciate it now.

[Taishan]

True, but a CELTA still more relvant for teaching than a degree!

A university would be where a CELTA would be most useful, but a degree is all that's needed!

[Talkdoc]

[Talkdoc]

[Taishan]

Doc,

You need to understand the difference between officially and the way things are actually done in China. Maybe there are no exceptions to the illegality of running a red light whilst driving a car here, put it doesn't make it a binding order unless there is a policeman patrolling intersection!

My sources are first hand information, someone I know has just been asked for a copy of his 'certificate' note that a BA diploma was not what was being asked for. This at the time of the school applying for his residence and expert status. Then, they said it's not reqiured after all because he has been here for years and his certificate (not a BA diploma) is in another country. Not before, at the issuing of the letter of invitation. So I feel we can really assume that at some stage the authorities feel they should see some form of qualifications. I'm sure the rules are enforced differently in different areas. I'm also sure you are correct in your understanding of the official rules, but often they are not relevant.

So to the answer the question 'can you work in China on a Z-visa without a BA?' The answer almost certainly YES at a school, not at a uni. Officially no in all cases. How to do this? Contact a school you want to work for and ask the boss if your qualifications are enough for him. Officially doesn't count, only reality. If they have the connections you will have a letter of invitation sent to you.

At no time did I suggest that you could officially obtain work documentation on a CELTA.

I have no doubt you are correct, the FAO's in China believe that an MA best. It doesn't make them right though!

[Talkdoc]

[orangiey]

Heyt
You guys are so great!
Thanks for all the advice. This is complete minefield as I said, and I am now looking at my next option.
I don't know about an F visa, or a tourist visa and look for work by coming to China first. I was hoping to net a job whilst still in the UK but that could be a whole new topic?
The other thing I will say is that this site is good but as a Brit I am not sure about all the regulations as most BA from the UK are a 3 year course so surely those from the UK with BAs would too have problems as a lot of posts ask for 4 year BAs?

Cheers
Good luck Charles and Camilla, save me a piece of cake!

[Taishan]

You presume that I only have a teaching certificate yet you presume incorrectly.

[Talkdoc]

Taishan - I am neither sad nor old and if expecting "teachers" to know their subject matter well before dispensing advice (about it) is elitist, then I most definitely am.

By the way, you mean "libelous" not "slanderous." As your research skills are so well-honed, I'll leave it to you to lookup the difference.

Doc