Job Discussion Forums

[krell]

Hi Sheri,

I'm not sure I understand your example. If the man was really
as fluent in Japanese as you suggest then he must have been
angry with the hospital and not because of any misunderstanding
surely.

Some others have spoke about context - yes in many situations,
like burger king, it is obvious by context 90% of the time
what you want. If you think your Korean is good(at the elementary level)
try to say (Cheese opshi) to see if they understand "hold the cheese"
Of course "no cheese" will be understood too.
I lived in Korea a long time before I could say exactly where I want to go
to a taxi driver or a ticket agent and not be asked for confirmation 90%
of the time. Korean in particular has very tricky vowels
("ah" and "o") that while vitally important to Korean(they are used
to distinguish words) are not so in English. Also the consonants can be tricky too.
A simple test for those in ANY country - speak to a child(maybe the one you are tutoring) and ask a simple but unexpected question like what is
your favorite color. There is no context and children, while no angels,
don't have an agenda like some adults. If they answer you then you
are on the road to better Japanese or whatever.

[Celeste]

[Sherri]

krell
What I meant was, the man could speak Japanese quite well and the staff could understand what he was saying (as far as I could see). The problem was how he said it, not what he said or his accent. A Japanese person in the same situation would not have shouted, I believe a more common approach would be to try and work out an understanding calmly, without shouting or causing a scene --no matter how frustrated they felt inside. So my message is, even if a person is proficient at the language, he or she may not be good at the social graces that come with the language. In Japanese, using silence, pauses, and certain vague expressions can be more effective at communicating your wishes without directly asking. Getting angry and shouting, no matter how fluent and able you are, will get you no where. I think most people who have spent time in Japan can attest to that!

I was amazed that someone who had obviously put in a lot of time and effort learning the language, did not seem to know how to communicate his wishes in Japanese effectively. Do you know what I mean now? Does it make sense?
Sherri

[sildentokyo1]

I have to agree with everyone above who said that there are a number of people who seem to think they speak better Japanese than they do. Several of my North American co-workers speak nearly incomprehensible, heavily accented Japanese. Still, the "deer in the headlights" response is very real and quite disconcerting when it happens.

My Japanese isn't that great or anything, but I have been mistaken for Japanese on several occasions where my face was not visible (on the phone or standing behind someone and initiating a conversation). Still, I was in Ebisu Garden Place (in central Tokyo) about two weeks ago at a sandwich shop which serves, presumably, many foreign customers. But when I got up to the counter to order, the clerk looked incredibly frightened and literally started to shake. Despite the fact that I spoke Japanese to her, she seemed to have absolutely no understanding of what I said, and turned to her co-worker for help. I really felt kind of sorry for her in a way. Some people are scared to death of even the possibility of having to speak English. I never knew I could be so scary!

[Lynn]

I really haven't come across people who think they can speak Japanese but actually cannot.

I've only seen the reverse. And since we are on the topic of our level of Japanese...mine is no where near perfect. I make mistakes. I have an accent. I can speak with fluency for everyday conversation. I passed the level 2 exam, if that gives you a rough idea.

I once was mistaken for a Brazillian born Japanese pretending to me American. He said to me in Japanese, "no way can an American speak Japanese the way you do. Your parents are Japanese for sure".

Sounds like a compliment, but it was actually quite an insult. I was in a taxi on the way to the end of the year party and the dirver didn't believe I was an English teacher. He said I must be a "companion"

[Nagoyaguy]

The "Frozen Japanese Syndrome" is a fact. It happens all the time. The ASSumption that whatever comes out of a non-Japanese looking person's mouth is NOT Japanese.

Probably more important, though is another factor. We English speakers are used to hearing people mangle our langauge all the time. Especially if you grow up in a larger city, you are exposed to a variety of accents and proficiency levels on a daily basis. English becomes a tool to get your point across. I read that something like 80% or more of English speakers are NOT native speakers- they are second language learners.

OTOH, Japanese people are NOT used to hearing their language destroyed by demon foreign tongues. From birth, they hear only good, correct, proper Japanese (perhaps shaded by a regional accent). They have no exposure to JSL students. Frankly, they arent trained to listen to content over form.

[shuize]

[Akula the shark]

There are certainly a lot of stereotypes concerning the Japanese language ability of non-Japanese, and I have frequently run into them.
Many Japanese assume that kanji are nigh on impossible for us to learn, and are extremely surprised when we are actually able to read and write them. A six year old kid in Japan can read and write kanji, but an adult westerner has no hope of learning? Not so.
Many Japanese assume that westerners are incapable of learning Japanese, particularly eikaiwa students who have encountered a number of fresh off the boat, new to Japan and Japanese teachers. Some of them found it amusing that I could speak Japanese.

[6810]

dudes, shucks...

I live all the way out in the mulga and speak Japanese all the time to local store owners, city hall etc. Been in the country for around nine months now and learning Japanese for as long...

No deers in the headlights, no screaming at the hospital, the dental clinic or even traffic, no suddenly deaf sales clearks (even when I go to the city)...

What's the deal here? Is this something that only occurs to posters on discussion boards (come on, it's humour and the point of the post is to beg to differ based on MY experience only).

[homersimpson]

[krell]

[taikibansei]

[taikibansei]

I guess, for me, the bottom line is that, yes, there certainly are foreigners similar to the ones Krell describes, and yes, I agree they can be quite irritating. However, the attempt to paint every foreigner/situation with the same brush--not to mention claim that any of this discussion requires an "experienced linguist" to understand--just stinks of troll.

Sorry in advance if I'm wrong and/or being unnecessarily harsh.

[Sherri]

Homersimpson wrote

[krell]

Hi Takebansei

First of all I am not a troll but a someone with a PhD in theoretical
linguistics. "Linguist" does NOT mean "polyglot", though
that misuse is common. I work at a major university as a linguist .
I also do not recall saying that this discussion requires a linguist.
How do I know "elevator" was mistressed without hearing it?
Please read my post carefully - I said "probably" . The reason is
that that is the most frequent mistake made by speakers of stress
languages like English and Russian when learning non-stress
languages like Japanese, Korean or French . It is probably what
happened to you in the TV studio too since it is easy for
English speakers to unconsciously stress words without knowing that
they are doing it. It happens to me even these days but quite rarely
now. I've been in similar situations.
As to your wife's experience in the restaurant - unbelievable!
Did it happen to her only that once? If so then surely it was
just a weird misundrstanding or maybe the waitress was a moron.
I don't deny that such people exist but they are the exception.
Sorry if my post seems harsh, but I call 'em as I see 'em