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Steiner · Joined: 21 Apr 2003 Posts: 573 Location: Hunan China

Gray000 brought this up in another thread and I was wondering if bad tests are pretty universal. The following are actual examples from the grammar section of a test all my 2nd year middle school students had to take.

26. He walked up to _____ cupboard near the wall and reached out for ____ second tube.
A. the; [something in Chinese]
B. the; a
C. a; a
D. [something in Chinese]; a
(B. or C. is correct)

30. ______ we can see, there is ______ problems in the mountains.
A. As; no such
B. What; not such
C. As; not such
D. Just; not so
(There is problems with subject-verb agreement)

31. She left everything ________, she left the market _______ home.
A. bought; to
B. bought; for
C. to buy; for
D.
(WHAT??)

34. He managed to find a boat, _______ they could get to the island.
A. in which
B. by which
C. on that
D. using it
(A. or B. is correct, right?)

Yes, I have proofread this post. These questions are exactly as they appear on the test. The students talk about how poorly they did on their exams and I think how ridiculous it is that they are graded on this. These four examples occurred within the space of nine questions. Some of the essays the kids have to read and give answers about are equally incomprehensible: "I had and essay failed this week."

One teacher asked me to proofread parts of an exam that either he or another teacher had made up, so he knows how many problems there are. I have offered to proofread all Grade 2 English exams before they are printed up, but so far no one's taken me up on the offer. Are my colleagues afraid of losing face, do they just not care enough, or is it something else?

And do you have any good test examples?

Kurochan · Joined: 01 Mar 2003 Posts: 944 Location: China

My students (second year university) were going to take the Band 4 (CET-4) this spring, and I found some mistakes on the old copies of the test they were using for practice. They were the same as your examples -- a, b, c, and d are all wrong. Their Chinese teachers make up some bogus justification for why the "right" answer is right. The students get really freaked out when I tell them that all of the choices are wrong.

In your case, I'm sure the teachers don't want to lose face. Also, I've heard the students quote some sort of things they were taught were grammar rules (I can't think of an example right now), that are actually totally bogus. I'm not sure where these things come from. Maybe I'll dig out an example later and fly it by you guys.

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

These test questions show why the English writing of Chinese English learners is as abysmal as is their comprehension and oral English: if their own teachers make up such questions, which they answer wrongly, they expect all of their students to write the same wrong answer. This is inevitable in a society that worshipsn "knowledge" above "skills", learning by heart rather than being competent!

I would try to find IELTS test papers.

Gray000 · Joined: 14 Apr 2003 Posts: 183 Location: A better place

The first month I was in CHina, I was presented with a test that said something like:

I am _______ pleased.

a) rather
b) quite
c) very
d) not

The problem was, there was absolutely NO CONTEXT! I got laughed at for saying 'It doesn't matter' and that was the start of my often problematic relationship with professional pedagogues in China.

Also, this example from http://www.homezone.org/mrkerry.html

EXAM PAPERS

Try your english. It may be your first language, but can you pass the exam in China ?

1. Okay means:
a. o.k b. alright c. no problem d. fine

2. I am ____ to meet you
a. happy b. pleased c. delighted d. honoured

3. He was trying his best to _________ her
a. motivate b. encourage c. help

4. Practice makes ________
a. pottery b. perfume c. porcelain d. peter

5. The boy wanted to ______ a snowman
a. making b. made c. makes

How did you do ? For the correct answers, go see the 55 year old english teacher who wrote this test. But you'll need to communicate with him on paper as he can't speak english.

All this said, there are some teachers, even in public school, who read English novels, use the internet, and generally strive for constannt improvement - but they are young and don't control anything.

Owen · Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 12:13 pm Post subject:

I was asked to proof-read the Liaoning Province 9th grade English tests last year and they were filled with exactly the type problems that are listed here. When I pointed out that some questions had no correct answer and that with others any of the answers could be correct the Chinese teacher who was the head of the English language department got very angry and demanded that I select the "correct" answer. I held my ground. They were so totally caught up in the concepts of there being one "correct" answer to anything and that it was impossible for the "authorities" to be wrong that even when it was obvious, they could not admit to a mistake.

There was only one Chinese teacher who actually had a good command of English and he explained later in private that they could never admit to the students that the tests were flawed or they would lose face and they couldn't change the tests since they came from the Provincial authorities.

This really goes back to the Chinese concept of the teacher being a fount of knowledge and the student being a passive media to asorb that knowledge. Students are often shocked if you tell them that a teacher has made a mistake. They actually have it hammered into them throughout their schooling that the teacher is always right.

Anne-Marie Gregory · Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 1:38 pm Post subject:

From what I've seen of the College English Tests (Bands 4 and 6) they are pretty poor. Things seem to be improving gradually (in terms of rhetoric in the texts used), so by about 2020 they'll be teaching late 20th century English with only a few mistakes Sad

There's a focus on hideous grammar points (which, even when correct, have little real relevance to communicating with foreigners), with little emphasis on ability to USE the language.
For example, CET 4 asks for a 100 word essay. CET 6 asks for a 120 word essay. English GCSE exams (when I did them) demand a 150 word essay off 16-year-olds, if they want a decent grade.
The focus on multiple choice is to make the examiners' lives easy. If you work with foreigners when you graduate they'll hardly come up to you say something then give you a slip of paper with four possible things they said on it.
My best students often approach me for an explanation about a correct answer they don't 'get'. I frequently have to tell them bluntly, there's no way in **** that the 'correct' answer is right.
Additionally, my college students have never had a national oral English exam. Sure, the CET now has an oral component....for students who get over 80%. I don't think any student from this institution has ever had a CET oral exam. The best students sail straight through the exams early on in their time at college, scrape the bar and move on to the serious business of what to do when they finish here, the weakest students try and keep trying to pass CET 4.
Someone needs to get the CET vocab list seriously revised. Maaaaaan, it sucks! I have students trying to use words like valedictory and calibrated in their essays....like you can just slip those in...but in a class of maybe 30 students, only 1 knew what a disco was, 'because it's not in our CET books!'
Soooooooooo, there needs to be complete overhaul of the English exam system here, from schools' and colleges' internal exams to the 'golden standards' of the CET exams.
Rant over! Examiners.....please take this as constructive criticism...you guys need to spend a serious length of time living in an English speaking country to see what changes you need to make.

Owen · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2003 1:55 am Post subject:

The vocabulary is indeed one of the worst problems with the English language teaching system here. I don't know who decided on the vocabulary selection but they must have been stoned at the time. Serously, I think that it primarily was selected from the writings of Marx and Engles (English language translations, of course) and from Victorian novels. No consideration given to a practical vocabulary that one could use in business or in everyday conversation.

Also, I get so frustrated at students and Chinese teachers mis-using a word and then, when corrected, informing me, "That is what it means in China!"

arioch36 · Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 3589

I agree totally about the vocabulary. Two problems immidiately strike me;

Students using these electronic dictionaries. The definitions are often so twisted, and they can tell betwwen a normally used word and a word that is rare. They go sfter the word that is longest and most complicated, which is exactly the wrong thing to do in most cases.

And as sais, the teachers who wrote the tests you can't speak english. You can see this when you visit historic sites. Now, despite what you might think from reading my posts, I have a pretty good vocabulay. But I can't figure out what some of their english word mean. But they will pull out a 100 year old dictionary, and say, " See, there it is"

Oral tests, I used to be all for them , until I saw the havoc and ruin created by the IELTS oral exam here in China. It's a scam. No consistency, no objectivity, and it doesn't prove anything. From times past, some of you know I am a strong believer in learning oral english. But for a national test, it sucks. It has no relevance to how good you will do in another country. And let's be honest all you testers, you decide in the first 30 seconds what the grade will be. And having such a long test just means the shy student will eventually screw up.

SO is it really testing ability, or is it testing who can put on a nice show?

Kurochan · Joined: 01 Mar 2003 Posts: 944 Location: China

Amen on the part about dictionaries! My student used the word c*nt (and I don't mean can't!) during a speech about AIDS education. I asked her where she got that word, and it was the first thing that popped up when she typed the Chinese definition into her dictionary.

Sometimes the students find words that don't exist, or definitions that are wrong. I had a student use the word "jokul" to mean mountain, because he found it in his dictionary. The students used the word "influent" to mean not fluent, and then they told me it was in their dictionaries. I told them that it is not really a word, except in the mind of some Chinese dictionary-maker. Actually, I have found out that it is a real word, meaning "flowing into," but I've never heard it in real life, and that's not what it said in their dictionaries.

Here's an example of something they told me broke a grammar rule: "The president announced yesterday he will be leaving for Latin America next month." The students said that it had to be "would be leaving," or it would break a grammar rule. Is this totally bogus, is it a British English rule, or an archaic rule? The sentence is an example I had given them from a grammar and style textbook. The example was meant to show that it is ok to shift tenses when you want to show a historical progression of action.

Anne-Marie Gregory · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2003 3:47 pm Post subject:

C*nt....that's a good one. One of my student's has an electronic dictionary that assured her that a 'hybrid' was someone of dual heritage/mixed race...I guess Sad

that avoids the problem of PC/fashionable wording.

My students here luuurve the word 'vapid'.

And my favourite quote on (indictment of) the national English exams....'through I hard-working and master the english language, I past the CET6' Yes really!

yaco · Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 473

The joys of learning another language !!!!!!

When a student learns about ' Fork and Knife' in times of stress it often becomes ' F---CK and Knife'.

Hamish · Joined: 20 Mar 2003 Posts: 333 Location: PRC

A serious request is contained herein.

Does anyone have a copy(ies) of any of the Chinese standardized English tests?

I have some, and need more for an article I'm writing. I'll share what I have with those who help me out.

As for those of you that have some, and won't share...

Regarding yo' Momma...

Regards,

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

kurochan;
- The president said yesterday: "I will be leaving for Latin America tomorrow!"

Versus:
- The president said yesterday he would be leaving for Latin America tomorrow!

No archaism, but a major difference: Reported speech versus plain indirect reporting.

I personally would be happy if my students were as bright as yours! Most of them don't know the difference between "don't you..." and "do you..."
"did you..." and 'didn't you..."
How can you do any meaningful dialogue with such students???

Gray000 · Joined: 14 Apr 2003 Posts: 183 Location: A better place

regarding those d****Ed dictionaries, I found one that said 'muffin' means 'breast'. Nice muffins! The dictionary had no other meaning for muffin.

Kurochan · Joined: 01 Mar 2003 Posts: 944 Location: China

Now, maybe it IS a British English thing, or a rule that has fallen out of use in the United States. The example came from "When Words Collide," a journalism stylebook, written by two journalism professors at University of Oregon. My feeling, when I read the sentence vs. the one you suggested, is that the first one, with "will," seems more definite. I think usually in the US, we use would in the context of "he would if he could, but he can't," so that the sentence you recommended makes it sound like the president won't necessarily go to Latin America, but just that he is planning to or stating an intention to go.