Job Discussion Forums

tofuman · Joined: 02 Jul 2004 Posts: 937

I faced a group of blankly staring students today. Mind you, the major that I teach has a specific English component, so their disinterest is a marvel to me. They could be taking a similar major without the English element. Apparently, someone is peddling English to these poor kid's parents and the youth are being made to pay.

Today, near the end of class, upon the board I wrote, "Dui niu tan qin" which can be translated "Playing the lute to a cow." I then compared the saying to my efforts on their behalf and asked them if they agreed. Well, the blank look left their faces and suddenly things started to liven up a bit, but the bell rang. The class ended with me hissing at them and making other sounds of displeasure back at them. My point was clearly made. I look forward to class next week.

Talkdoc · Joined: 03 Mar 2004 Posts: 696

journeyeast · Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:12 pm Post subject:

Get to know them. ASk them what they would rather be doing than sitting there in your class. Make the silence and uncomfortable situation a staple of humor, get to know them outside of class.. if wheather permits take them outside the classroom enviornment.. It will be a long contract term if you cant find the middle ground.. Dont get angry, you'll just get them against you and that kind of animocity should be avoided..

One you get to know them a little better, you can design your lassroom around a perceived aggragate class interest..

Anyway, if that fails survey the class on homosexuality.. THeir perceptions etc.. Then show them the movie Philidelphia.. Poll them after the movie and see if their minds have changed.. Talk about why their minds have changed..

I always try to polarize the classrooms whenever possible, especially when there are so many students.. After 30 students, a teacher cannot be reasonably expected to gaurantee a quality of education..

Schools should try to understand that, if only they cared..

Keith

rickinbeijing · Joined: 22 Jan 2005 Posts: 252 Location: Beijing, China

See post below.

rickinbeijing · Joined: 22 Jan 2005 Posts: 252 Location: Beijing, China

Hand-holding won't work with your students from the sound of it. The likelihood is that many, if not most, are not intrinsic learners since it is a small college (although some are there who may be well motivated but lacked opportunities for access to key universities).

First, many if not most EFL educators who come to China are unfamiliar with the range of Chinese cultural responses in the classroom. Yes, as TalkDoc pointed out, many are just plain not interested. Those who are apathetic can scribble on their hands for all I care as long as they don't disrupt the class. That's where I draw the line in the sand.

And you need to draw lines in the sand, metaphorically speaking, of course. You are not there to entertain like an organ grinder and monkey all one and the same, although more than a few school administrators hire oral English teachers just for that reason.

Jiang hua is a common practice not only in Chinese classrooms but board rooms and meeting halls. It is idle chatter derived from years of being forced to listen to boring lectures from educators who don't talk to but at their students. It is a peculiar form of student resistance and manifests itself even in middle schools. You need to discern between chatter which is deliberately disruptive and even malicious and chatter which is passing the time. The latter also occurs, of course, with students who don't understand most of what you say and are frustrated.

I sometimes throw chalk (a practice pursued by more than a few Chinese teachers, I might add). I have an uncanny aim, which I take pride in. It works well with middle school students, less so with college students. Best to give the whole class the silent treatment and stare at the offenders.

Your job is to teach, not entertain. Good luck.

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

Talkdoc · Joined: 03 Mar 2004 Posts: 696

Roger, I have been a university professor for over 21 years now and this is the most absurd claptrap I have ever read from anyone claiming to know what he or she is doing as an educator.

If you need to be the ultimate disciplinarian in order to affirm your own sense of self-importance as a teacher in China, then I feel terribly sorry for your students but don't try to pass this Machevellian rhetoric off (at least the parts that I could understand) as responsible academic behavior.

These college students are overworked and overloaded young adults; they are never going to learn how to think independently and for themselves unless someone allows them to. If my students can speak passable English and they don't care to come to class (because they consider me to be boring or they hate English, or they prefer to sleep, or for whatever other reason), they will pass the class just as long as they can pass the exams: if not, they will decidely fail. I only issue grades the students have earned: one way or the other. One of my students (from last semester) is an actor and (because of his work) missed most of our classes. His English is as good as your's (at least his written English is) and he passed the class with a grade of 95. Are you seriously suggesting I should have failed him or just refused to give him a grade for a class in oral English, when his English skills qualify him for a Band 6.5 to 7.0 on the oral IELTS exam, simply because he only attended two or three of my classes? Remember folks: you read it first on Dave's ESL Cafe from our one and only Roger!

From a classroom management perspective, forcing attendance is a grave error. No experienced and responsible educator (at the college level, that is) is going to waste his or her time, as well as the rest of the class's time, trying to engage students who clearly do not want to be in attendance. This is not primary school Mr. Rogers.

I do not allow my students to engage in private conversations during class and they may not conduct work for other classes while in attendance (they can do that in their dorms). If they desperately need to inform their neighbor of something urgent, they can quietly leave my classroom in order to do so (and return, if they care to, when they are finished). I enforce this policy because it is a sign of respect not only to me but especially to their peers.

Doc

bendan · Joined: 18 Jun 2004 Posts: 739 Location: North China

Talkdoc · Joined: 03 Mar 2004 Posts: 696

bendan · Joined: 18 Jun 2004 Posts: 739 Location: North China

Yes, I suppose "large chunk" is itself an exaggeration. My observations are based on living in a city with a huge amount of foreign investment, something which is not true of every place.

I've found that even the laziest of my students regards the ability to speak English as a very useful skill; most have just accepted that they are not going to be one of those who acquire that skill, and seek only to pass the exam.

Road_runner · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 8 Location: Canada

Hi Barbie, Peter, & others,
Here is my take on all these:
It appears that you are experiencing a cultural shock on both sides. No one is at fault of course.
The students are used to being passive learners as their whole life have been trained to respect and obey their elders and superiors, especially their teachers. The teachers are their 2nd set of parents.
In the West we try to treat our students closer to "equals". In the East there is a distinct divide.
So there lies the difference: You, as good teachers that you are, are trying to fit "a round object into a square hole". And the result is frustration.
I would suggest one day you show up in front of the class and start with
"Ni hao!" or "Ni hao ma?" ( hello or how are you? in Mandarin)
Ask them if any of them understand you or does that sound ok?. Then go on with a monologue of you having had this phone call home (make one up) and talked about a birth or birthday celebration at home or whatever. Occasionally stopping and asking if anyone understands you? If someone responds, then you have a conversation. If no one responds, you keep on with the monologue, changing the subject to something sad or whatever..... Maybe a phone call in which you tell your parents how your job is and what kind of students you have..... Oh well, use your imagination and enjoy the star role of your own play!
The students and you are foreigners to each other, maybe building up some trust would help or letting them know of your humanness like them; have family, friends, feelings, etc.
Good luck.

Talkdoc · Joined: 03 Mar 2004 Posts: 696

bendan · Joined: 18 Jun 2004 Posts: 739 Location: North China

I think all my students know that most people don't need to be able to speak English, but they also recognise that those who can have more opportunities. The fact that few enrol in adult classes is, in my opinion, due to their perception that it is incredibly difficult and time consuming to learn a foreign language in your spare time, and in your own country. The chances are they would ultimately fail. Acquiring other skills might prove a better investment, but that doesn't mean they see no value in English.

Most students will never speak English after they graduate because they can't. If they could, they would be the ones selected to join the foreign visitors for dinner, to go to overseas trade fairs, to handle the occasional calls from overseas, to be PA to the general manager. My students know that, because it's the reality in our city.

Remember, I'm only talking about university graduates here. They represent a very small, though growing, part of the Chinese population. Of course, farmers, shelf-stackers, construction workers and the like will probably not benefit from being able to speak English.

I can't think of any Chinese I know who speak English well but *never* use it in their work.

benno · Joined: 28 Jun 2004 Posts: 501 Location: Fake Mongolia

i have god damn awful students this semester
useless, couldnt be bothered to do any work in the class
i have told them that they bore me!
50 in each class, difficult to do an oral class, i often put them into groups and let them do their own thing, i dont care if they speak english, it aint my problem!
i feel that the chinese (as talkdoc pointed out) really dont want to learn english, so the EFl teachers shouldnt be too downhearted, just relax and look forward to pay day, in china no onecares

kev7161 · Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Posts: 5880 Location: Suzhou, China

I disagree with TalkDoc on so many levels. Granted, I don't teach at the university level, rather the Senior high, so bear with me.

1. Most of us know that the maturity level of Chinese youths and young adults are a little lacking. If I had to guess, I'd say the average 21 year old Chinese student is on par with a 16 year old in some western countries. How many 16 year olds do YOU know that want to be in school? Obviously, I'm not making a blanket statement here, but we read time and again of the frustrations of FTs (college teachers) when it comes to kids sleeping in class or playing with mobile phones or reading a chinese comic book or . . .

2. Whether we want to accept it or not, one of our responsibilities as a teacher is to guide these young and impressionable minds. Sure, they may hate English (or science or math), but that's no excuse to blow off the class all the time. The university I attended back home (that I paid for, mind you) has a rule that if you have three unexcused absences during the course of the, uh, course then you are suspended from the class. If it is a class you need for your degree, why then you'll just have to take it over. This is established up front. No surprises,everyone knows (unless you missed the first class, that is). The Chinese government has mandated that all students must take (and learn?) English. One part of the learning process of any foreign language is the spoken part. Where is it our right to say, "eh, come if you want - - take the test and pass it, then you're on your way to speaking really good English."?

3. As a teacher in China, I've had my ups and downs but I've tried my best to give my charges quality lessons and activities to help them improve their English skills. If I have 30 students for 45 minutes 2X a week, then my lesson plans revolve around that number. If a couple of kids are missing from time to time, that's not going to impact my plans very much. If, however, I have 4 students instead of 30, my lesson will be over in 10 minutes! I have 35 more minutes to "shoot the breeze" with my kids. Nothing wrong with that, but how many times can I do that? Also, what if small numbers become the norm and I start planning lessons for a smaller group and then one day I'm surprised at 30 faces staring at me (maybe it was a rainy, cold day and there was nothing better to do)? Should I be preparing lessons for 4 people, 15 people, and 30 people at all times? Some may be willing to do this, but I'm not.

4. Finally, it's a matter of respect, in my opinion. If a student comes to me and says, "Kevin, I can't be here next class because . . ." then that is fine and dandy. Or, if a student comes to and says, "Kevin, I wasn't here for last class, because . . . " also, no problem. But just showing up (or not showing up) when you want to just rubs me the wrong way. They won't be able to do that at their job, I imagine, and college is just another stepping stone in learning how to exist in the real world.

In my humble opinion, Talkdoc is trying to justify why he doesn't have better control over his students. No, you don't have to be a Nazi about it, but a few upfront rules would be nice. Especially in a foreign language class, I just feel that class attendance/participation should be part of the grade. Otherwise, what's the point? However, if Talkdoc's (or anyone else's reading this) class is about the mechanics of English - - then I have a different opinion of what I am saying above. My views I listed are based on a full spectrum of English learning: reading, writing, speaking, pronunciation, reasoning, etc.