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malcoml
Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 215
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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I can tell you now that you should follow their policy. I can understand why they do it and the policy is fair. Similar policies are put into place in military organisations around the world. There is good reason for it.
Could you imagine if a student made a complaint to the police that she had been raped by the teacher. Front page news ! This is publicity that a school does not need. They have a right to protect their business image. If they can not protect their image then they will be more inclined to only employ female teachers.
Those of you who think that you can keep a student/teacher relationship a secret obviously dont know Japanese women that well. |
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nicyvesweet
Joined: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| bearcat wrote: |
You example doesn't fit the model of the issue with Nova on all accounts.
There are teachers who have met and dated students of Nova who were not of branch schools that they ever taught in.
Potentially, you could meet someone nice at a bar or gym and discover they are a Nova student and be held accountable.... even though they took lessons on the other side of town and far from where the teacher worked.
You assume that the relationships developed are soley based on interactions that occurred while at the work place. This has not always been the case.
It is a broad rule for Nova. Essentially to make it a bit more clear, you can have no socially based interaction with any Nova student in any situation outside of a Nova setting.
To compare it to the model you gave with a professor. It would be like a university making a ruling that no professor was allowed to meet for any social function with any student of any branch of the university in any city/town. If the professor was invited to the wedding of a someone who said members of the wedding party perhaps went to a branch of the university in a different town that he didnt even teach in? And to make matters worse, he went because of a friend who has nothing to do with the university was a relative of the groom.
Essentially this then shows the extent of the broadness of Nova's policy and why it is by intent and spirit fundamentally wrong. |
As far as it being so broad I have to say, well yeah that sucks. To the whole no socialization as far as friendship, perhaps I should have elaborated. I happen to know at my former university and at a couple of others the TAs couldn't associate with anyone in the class. They could not befriend anyone, socialization outside of class was forbidden, and if the TA knew that a friend was in the class, they'd be switched to a different section. Socialization still happened, but there were penalties if they were caught. Usually dismissal. |
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Sadken
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 341
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| malcoml wrote: |
Could you imagine if a student made a complaint to the police that she had been raped by the teacher. Front page news ! This is publicity that a school does not need. They have a right to protect their business image. If they can not protect their image then they will be more inclined to only employ female teachers. |
Can you imagine the scandal if someone who worked in McDonalds raped someone who might possibly have once, perhaps, maybe bought a Big Mac? |
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bearcat
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| malcoml wrote: |
| I can tell you now that you should follow their policy. I can understand why they do it and the policy is fair. |
You haven't been reading. The policy is not even remotely fair. It is too broad and can be cause for people loosing their jobs just for speaking to, yes speaking to, a Nova student outside of work in the extreme sense of it. Going to dinners, weddings, parties of non nova friends etc that have a Nova student in attendance as well can land a teacher in hot water. That is how broad spectrum the rule is.
Thus it is VERY far from fair. Get your head out of the sand.
| malcoml wrote: |
Similar policies are put into place in military organisations around the world. There is good reason for it. |
Name me one military organization that has such a broad non socialization policy please, malcoml. You, as others, still don't get the scope of the rule and assume it to encompass only one area if concern. You're just flat out wrong.
| malcoml wrote: |
Could you imagine if a student made a complaint to the police that she had been raped by the teacher. Front page news ! This is publicity that a school does not need. |
This is a really poor example. You're trying to use a sensational thing to firm up what you are weakly saying. Doesn't work.
First of all, rape doesn't have to include familiarity with the victim. Date rape yes but not other forms of rape.
Second, a rape can occur even with or without this policy.
Third, the policy is much broader than the point given. You're attempting to imply it isn't and that is misleading.
| malcoml wrote: |
They have a right to protect their business image. |
Yes but not at the expense of human civil liberties.
| malcoml wrote: |
If they can not protect their image then they will be more inclined to only employ female teachers. |
That has to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard. You're also suggesting something that is discriminatory and truly illegal.
But more importantly it would never fly. The sheer number of positions Nova has can't gather enough female teacher to encompass it.
But more even more importantly, students would demand differently or they'd go someplace else.
They already can't protect their image, malcoml. Nova has been hit with suits against them not only from teachers but students as well in the past for various reasons. They continue to make panic'd, fly-by-the-seat-of-their-pants decisions that they spend years dealing with the fallout there of.
| malcoml wrote: |
| Those of you who think that you can keep a student/teacher relationship a secret obviously dont know Japanese women that well. |
No malcoml, you just don't know how poorly your spin is unraveling.
I'm not going to go into the stupid point about women and keeping secrets. That's so chauvanistic that its pathetic. Its also not true.
But you and other readers need to realize the policy forbids not just an intimate relationship with a Nova student. It forbids ANY INTERACTION WHAT SO EVER with a Nova student outside of the work environment. If your neighbor is a Nova student and you go a neighborhood party together, its grounds for dismissal. And I could continue on and on and on.
If you're going to attempt to rationalize Nova's policy, AT LEAST know what the hell you're talking about. |
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bearcat
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| nicyvesweet wrote: |
| bearcat wrote: |
You example doesn't fit the model of the issue with Nova on all accounts.
There are teachers who have met and dated students of Nova who were not of branch schools that they ever taught in.
Potentially, you could meet someone nice at a bar or gym and discover they are a Nova student and be held accountable.... even though they took lessons on the other side of town and far from where the teacher worked.
You assume that the relationships developed are soley based on interactions that occurred while at the work place. This has not always been the case.
It is a broad rule for Nova. Essentially to make it a bit more clear, you can have no socially based interaction with any Nova student in any situation outside of a Nova setting.
To compare it to the model you gave with a professor. It would be like a university making a ruling that no professor was allowed to meet for any social function with any student of any branch of the university in any city/town. If the professor was invited to the wedding of a someone who said members of the wedding party perhaps went to a branch of the university in a different town that he didnt even teach in? And to make matters worse, he went because of a friend who has nothing to do with the university was a relative of the groom.
Essentially this then shows the extent of the broadness of Nova's policy and why it is by intent and spirit fundamentally wrong. |
As far as it being so broad I have to say, well yeah that sucks. To the whole no socialization as far as friendship, perhaps I should have elaborated. I happen to know at my former university and at a couple of others the TAs couldn't associate with anyone in the class. They could not befriend anyone, socialization outside of class was forbidden, and if the TA knew that a friend was in the class, they'd be switched to a different section. Socialization still happened, but there were penalties if they were caught. Usually dismissal. |
Anyone in the class is quite understandable it is a conflict of interests that could involve preferential treatment in the case of a friend being in the class. At least the university had/has the decency to switch the TA into a different section as they understand it isn't something controllable by the TA in that situation.
The policy that Nova has isn't reasonable or understanding. Its grounds for firing all the same. |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| malcoml wrote: |
I can tell you now that you should follow their policy. I can understand why they do it and the policy is fair. Similar policies are put into place in military organisations around the world. There is good reason for it.
Could you imagine if a student made a complaint to the police that she had been raped by the teacher. Front page news ! This is publicity that a school does not need. They have a right to protect their business image. If they can not protect their image then they will be more inclined to only employ female teachers.
Those of you who think that you can keep a student/teacher relationship a secret obviously dont know Japanese women that well. |
Dear Malcolm, I note that you appear to be in Australia whilst we are living and working in Japan.
Nova's policy is not that Nova teachers may not rape their students; such a policy would, I think, be fairly uncontentious with most of us teachers here in Japan.
The policy is that NO Nova teacher, of any gender, may, on pain of dismissal, knowingly associate with ANY Nova student OF ANY Nova SCHOOL of either gender ANYTIME; EVER. This is obviously an infringement of their basic human right of free asociation and violation of the policy has been ruled by a Japanese judge to be invalid as grounds for dismissal on this basis.
Japanese Nova employees are not similarly restricted.
The military rule is that Officers may not date or marry Enlisted Men and Women and is intended to help uphold the mystique of the so-called officer class. |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:03 am Post subject: |
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It's always seemed to me that NOVA would appeal most to students who just want a chance to talk to an English-speaker rather than to students who are looking for a chance to really study. Perhaps that isn't fair, but it's my impression.
NOVA seems well-set up for that. Students can show up and have different teachers, presumably attend different branches, and talk to lots of different people.
If NOVA teachers meet the students privately and become friends, the students would have much less motivation to actually go to NOVA, whereas at a more serious school, the students would not want to miss out on the opportunity to actually study something. After all, since NOVA students see many teachers, they presumably could make several friends, or join an existing group of friends, and then not need NOVA.
But even though the other big schools are presumably not much more serious than NOVA (although perhaps they are, I don't know), they encourage teachers to socialize with students in groups or as a class. So, they must not be worried about teachers poaching students. I'm not sure of the discrepency in attitudes. Perhaps because most other schools have regular group classes, the dynamic is just different.
Does NOVA have an explanation for why they have this policy? Do they explain the reasoning to new employees? |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| malcoml wrote: |
Could you imagine if a student made a complaint to the police that she had been raped by the teacher. Front page news ! This is publicity that a school does not need. |
| Quote: |
This is a really poor example. You're trying to use a sensational thing to firm up what you are weakly saying. Doesn't work.
First of all, rape doesn't have to include familiarity with the victim. Date rape yes but not other forms of rape.
Second, a rape can occur even with or without this policy.
. |
You are also forgetting that rape or physical assault, molestation of a woman on a train are criminal offences for which you can be arrested charged and imprisoned. Any whiff of scandal involving the police and the NOVA teacher will be out of a job. This even includes drunk driving.
I very much doubt a NOVA teacher would be stupid enough to physically assault a student. Not only that, rape is not about sex but about POWER over women. Even 80 year old women and babies get raped.
Do you think a NOVA teacher would be stupid enough to rape a student, a customer of his boss? He would tarnish the professional reputation of every English teacher in the country.
| Quote: |
That has to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard. You're also suggesting something that is discriminatory and truly illegal.
But more importantly it would never fly. The sheer number of positions Nova has can't gather enough female teacher to encompass it.
But more even more importantly, students would demand differently or they'd go someplace else. |
On average in Japan there are probably about 8 men for every 2 women teaching in Japan at a conversation school, and even less at university or high school positions. there are simply not enough women to fill NOVAs 4,000 positions. Many women teach in Japan but becuase of sexual discrimination, chauvinism many women do not pursue a long term teaching career (as a generalisation)
| malcoml wrote: |
| Those of you who think that you can keep a student/teacher relationship a secret obviously dont know Japanese women that well. |
Yes it is chauvinistic, but all you need is one spurned suitor going to the front office and telling secretaries who she slept with last night or who she has been dating to make you fall foul of NOVAs own work rules.
And you have you ever heard of female students who stalk teachers? They happen at NOVA too. How many Japanese women do you know, living in Australia?
| Quote: |
But you and other readers need to realize the policy forbids not just an intimate relationship with a Nova student. It forbids ANY INTERACTION WHAT SO EVER with a Nova student outside of the work environment. If your neighbor is a Nova student and you go a neighborhood party together, its grounds for dismissal. And I could continue on and on and on.
If you're going to attempt to rationalize Nova's policy, AT LEAST know what the hell you're talking about. |
NOVA teachers have been warned or told off for meeting women outside train stations, who were not even NOVA students but the teacher was being spied on or spotted by his supervisors.
Eldery married couples who study at NOVA have invited teachers for dinner or to an onsen but the teacher has to refuse the offer. Its NOVA telling you what you can do in your private life, who you can see, meet and speak to. Its the same as the Stasi in East Germany.
Last edited by PAULH on Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark wrote: |
It's always seemed to me that NOVA would appeal most to students who just want a chance to talk to an English-speaker rather than to students who are looking for a chance to really study. Perhaps that isn't fair, but it's my impression.
? |
At NOVA there are no exams. no tests, no homework and no pass/fail (except not being allowed to go up to the next level. Some students do review but it seems to be a rehash of a lesson they already did, with the same methodology they had the first time. NOVA is not really about 'studying' though thats what it seems like. Its a chance for Japanese to sit in a room with a foreigner, forget about the world outside and speak English with a native speaker.
| Mark wrote: |
NOVA seems well-set up for that. Students can show up and have different teachers, presumably attend different branches, and talk to lots of different people.
? |
Which also means there is very little consistency, students can carry mistakes or fossilised language from teacher to teacher and not get picked up on it, though they get to hear many different accents.
| Mark wrote: |
If NOVA teachers meet the students privately and become friends, the students would have much less motivation to actually go to NOVA, whereas at a more serious school, the students would not want to miss out on the opportunity to actually study something. After all, since NOVA students see many teachers, they presumably could make several friends, or join an existing group of friends, and then not need NOVA.
? |
NOVA students have already paid for books of lessons, sometimes hundreds of thousands of yen and even taken out loans. For many students its a matter of using up the tickets before they expire. So even if they get freebies after work they still have to use up the tickets they have paid for.
I think you can be friends with students but also realise that you are selling a service, though many students dont see it that way. they are paying for your skill and knowledge, and by rights is not something that you should give away for free. Its like asking an electrician friend to fix your fridge on his day off.
Secondly, I think many teachers would agree, they dont really want to be 'teaching' English to their NOVA friends in their off-hours when you are not being paid for it. Do lawyers give free legal advice on their days off? Do doctors chase ambulances?
They are paid to sit in a classroom for 40 30 hours a week and hear horrendous English. I dont think I want to hear it in my free time as well. Great for student if Im willing to put up with it, but I would prefer to speak Japanese to my Japanese friends or find friends who are not my students. Some students I will be friends with but I will put a wall between my private and professional life. If you can not speak Japanese you are probably restricted as to who your friends will be, and students are your first choice. I really dont want to be giving them 'freebies' in my valuable free time.
I dont work at NOVA nor know about the social comings and goings of students there but when I was there before the ban we used to go out in groups with students, perhaps friends studying together. Japanese will make their own fun, have their own circles, with or without foreigners.
| Mark wrote: |
Does NOVA have an explanation for why they have this policy? Do they explain the reasoning to new employees? |
Because of abuse of the privilege by former teachers and NOVA imposed a blanket on fraternisation. The story goes that NOVA teachers invited underage girls to an overnight party and the parents of the girls complained to NOVA. End of socialisation between teachers.
Not only that male teachers would openly proposition students for dates during lessons, have sex after hours in unused classrooms. Teachers have been caught 'in the act' on school premises. Some people dont know how to zip up their libidos at work.
I doubt they 'explain' the policy to new teachers (not in detail anyway) and people dont realise the ramifications of its clauses until they sign the contract and start working.
People think it means no-dating, but it means no social contact whatsoever with any student, male or female, outside work hours. That only happens in totalitarian dictatorships and apartheid South Africa. |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Quote: |
Mark wrote:
NOVA seems well-set up for that. Students can show up and have different teachers, presumably attend different branches, and talk to lots of different people. |
?
Which also means there is very little consistency, students can carry mistakes or fossilised language from teacher to teacher and not get picked up on it, though they get to hear many different accents.
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I didn't mean to imply that this was better for language acquisition, but just that it might appeal to students whose main goal was to chat with foreigners.
| Quote: |
| Not only that male teachers would openly proposition students for dates during lessons, have sex after hours in unused classrooms. Teachers have been caught 'in the act' on school premises. Some people dont know how to zip up their libidos at work. |
I know that there are lots of stories about NOVA teachers as well as NOVA students, but it seems hard to believe that this was even remotely common. You'd think that many students would find classroom propositions inappropriate and complain to the staff. Teachers could then be disciplined or fired. Though perhaps students don't care. As for sex in unused classrooms, the non-socialization policy doesn't really affect that. If it happened before, it's probably still happening now. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark wrote: |
[
I didn't mean to imply that this was better for language acquisition, but just that it might appeal to students whose main goal was to chat with foreigners. |
On the very first day, students get shown a video, have a demo lesson with a native speaker and foreigners are all over the TV ads. Students know what they are getting. They know they will get a foreign teacher, and by definition they will want to speak a foreign language with a foreign national. NOVA has Japanese nationals teaching English as some students request them, but that is NOVAs selling point.
Students want to chat with foreigners, but that then begs the question- is NOVA a school, and are you a language teacher if all the student wants to do is 'chat'?
I have taught at NOVA and a majority of the students are low-level, and dont have the language skills and vocabulary to chat, as in unstructured free conversation. Put it this way, could you sustain a conversation in Japanese, with no textbooks, no dictionary, no teaching aids, for 10-15 minutes? It took me 5 years of Japanese study before I could do that and a majority of your 7A or 6C students wont be able to handle it. Small talk maybe but 'chat?' I guess it depends on what you are talking about.
They want to but their ability is not up to anything past days of the week or telling the time or their hobbies. High level, intermediate you can do it, but once you have been here 6 months there will be nothing you have not heard before. If its a school you are also teaching them grammar, usage, culture, pronunciation, and most NOVA teachers have no training in teaching those anyway, except how to speak English.
| Quote: |
| I know that there are lots of stories about NOVA teachers as well as NOVA students, but it seems hard to believe that this was even remotely common. You'd think that many students would find classroom propositions inappropriate and complain to the staff. Teachers could then be disciplined or fired. Though perhaps students don't care. As for sex in unused classrooms, the non-socialization policy doesn't really affect that. If it happened before, it's probably still happening now. |
Its not common but it does happen. teachers know what the boundaries are, and no student is worth losing your job over just so you can get some action. Some Romeos will push the envelope and some students will complain if you come on to them or ask inappropriate questions. Its a kind of harassment and a class lesson which a student has paid for is not the place to hit on women.
I know one NOVA teacher was fired last year in Osaka as he was drinking chu-hais (an alcoholic fermented fizzy drink) in class, had alcohol on his breath and was asking female students for email addresses. This was in the MM and other students were listening. AFAIK the MM classes in Osaka are monitored by the office staff. |
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Iwantmyrightsnow
Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| malcoml wrote: |
| I can tell you now that you should follow their policy. I can understand why they do it and the policy is fair. . |
You might think so but Japanese courts disagree and have deemed the clause illegal. |
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Iwantmyrightsnow
Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| PAULH wrote: |
I know one NOVA teacher was fired last year in Osaka as he was drinking chu-hais (an alcoholic fermented fizzy drink) in class, had alcohol on his breath and was asking female students for email addresses. This was in the MM and other students were listening. AFAIK the MM classes in Osaka are monitored by the office staff. |
True but the rest of the story I heard was he intended to get fired so that he could claim unemployment insurance. till wrong but not quite the same as someone thinking they could do it and get away with it. |
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Iwantmyrightsnow
Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:51 am Post subject: |
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Stole this quote from another discussion group to shou how the policy is abused.
From an old NOVA Union Of Teachers Union Broadside issue - April 1997
Quote:
When asked why the company's well-known non-socialization policy was established, Lundqvist enigmatically replied with "there was no particular reason not to accept it at the time." This evasive, non-answer only served to confirm his clear disdain toward the union and labor commission proceedings. Asked whether it would be a violation of the non-socialization policy for a teacher to attend the same karate school as a student, Lundqvist stated that such a scenario in-itself would not constitute a violation of the rule. Despite his assurances, Robert Hughes, our newly elected president, was reprimanded for doing just that less than a year ago. |
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johanne
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 189
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:13 am Post subject: |
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I worked at NOVA ten years ago and married one of my students. I originally met him at a party for the head teacher. She was leaving and the students organized a party for her. All of this was against the rules, but nobody cared. It was a small school in Kanazawa and the foreign manager was in Osaka and the local Japanese manager loved a party of any kind, so all was fine. As the school grew, this type of thing stopped, but I was already living with my boyfriend by then. The staff and other teachers all knew, but nobody cared. The subsequent head teacher also ended up dated one of the students and seemed quite intent on marrying her. Another of the teachers was stringing along 3 or 4 of the students and ended up being kicked out of his apartment which he shared with his American girlfriend, as she apparently got fed-up with calls from various women at all hours and his never coming home when she expected him. So, all I can say is the policy exists, but I think whether it is enforced depends completely on which branch you're working at.
Another point, even if NOVA hired only female teachers, the rule would still be broken, (I'm a case in point) although I admit probably not nearly as much. Personally, I never worried about losing my job. Even if I had been fired, I had a valid visa and would simply have looked for another job. Eikawa jobs are not that hard to come by, especially if you are already in the country and have a valid visa. The only sticky point is if you are living in a NOVA apartment, as being fired also means being homeless if you can't line something else up pretty quickly. |
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