Job Discussion Forums

[Roger]

Thanks, kevin, for your point.

I was somewhat surprised by TalkdDoc's stance - whatever I managed to udnerstand (his posts are nearly always way too long and repetitive). A lot of what he normally says makes sense even when he gives me one of his knockbacks for my advice on visa issues when people fail to be issued an invitation for a work visa - it is his interpretation of the facts as they are known to us. Maybe he is a sort of visa Nazi, but in his classroom management he is an obvious slacker who is labouring under the illusion his Americanness is somehow superior to the locals with their strictness.
I wonder, Doc, how your university can trust you for advice and suggestions if you don't follow their rules and the rules that govern a student's life. I think you have completely forgotten that in the merry ol' U.S.A. you have a number of social and discipline problems that the Chinese don't have just yet, nor do they want to import them. Maybe you should ask your superiors how they would handle students that don't show up. In my university the principal and the head of the foreign language department both told us that we have to ensure attendance - upon my asking them to clarify their policy.

What balderdash to read "they are overworked" - from Dr Freud in person now teaching English in sunny Haikou! I say: so what? Two periods fewer - they would only fool around, go to a cinema or cavort with their girlfriends; they get a privilege toattend a class designed to make their theoretical English something of practical value.
If you can't stand up to your students you have no face! IT is not that big a deal, really - I find roll-calls quite amusing, and so do most of my students.

It is a serious misunderstanding for a foreign teacher to give their Chinese students as much liberty as these teachers might grant their students back home. You are making yourself complicit in their cheating and deceiving games. You are wrong, Doc, to preach here that it is not our job to check on our students' prsence or absence. IT IS MY JOB, and I am certain it is also your job.

[Talkdoc]

Kevin and Roger, thank you gentlemen for the feedback. I will certainly take your learned opinions under advisement.

Although after reading your comments, and particularly in light of Indiana Jones's recent assertion that one simply cannot be serious about teaching in China in the absence of TESOL certification, I am beginning to wonder if after 21 years of university teaching, I shouldn't be seriously considering a career change. Oh the humanity.

How much "life experience" credit do you all think Belford University would award me towards a doctor's degree in hairdressing? (I'd even be willing to accept a master's degree as this does represent a significant change in fields for me.) I hear from Tofuman that hair salons are a great way to make a few extra bucks in China and I just can't think of a better way to meet girls. Besides, I could write off all the beer and wine I could possibly drink as a business expense (or is that only in America? Sorry Roger: that really wasn't written to provoke you - I swear).

Well, no matter what I decide to do with the rest of my life, it's at least obvious to my esteemed senior colleagues, Kevin and Roger, that I have no place teaching in a Chinese university. I'm just hoping I can make this career change before my superiors get wise to the fact that I have "no control over my students" and that I am attempting to "import" America's social problems into this university. God help me. (And you thought you had problems - HA!)

Now if I had only followed Mr. Rogers' good advice and come to teach in Haikou with an F-Visa (you know, just to see how I liked it and if I could pass probation), it really would be a lot easier for me now to leave early instead of just hanging around, waiting to get fired.

Guys, thanks again for the wake-up call.

Doc

[kev7161]

I'm sorry, could you tell me again how many years you've been a university professor?

[Talkdoc]

[beck's]

I usually agree with Talk Doc on most issues but on this one I must disagree. In an English class attendance is vital. No matter what a student's level, he or she can always impove with practice. The more proficient students can help the less able. It is our job to try to teach everyone. As an former principal once said to me when I was a beginning teacher, "we may not win em all but we have to play em all."

I would advise making a seating plan. Then you can easily tell who is there and who is not. Be in class early. Be there when the students arrive and greet them individually by name. Say a few words to them or ask them a question. They need to know that you know who they are and that you are interested in them and their lives. Using the seating plan you can always call them by name. When you see them on the campus stop and talk to them, even if it only hi. All of the studies that I have read conclude that girls learn best when they have a positive relationship with their teacher. boys tend to be different in this respect but the OP states that his class is 90% girls.

Everytime a students stands up to speak you should place a dot next to their name on the seating plan. Tell them that you are doing this and also tell them that the students who practice English the most will get the highest marks. Tell them that they will be marked on their effort and participation and attendance. If they miss five classes they will fail. In a class of many different levels you should assign marks for improvement, effort and attendance and not simply for profiency.

Get them to practice English by preparing and performing role-plays. Since your class is mostly girls you should make these relationship based. For example: Student A is the mother, Student B is the father, Student C is the daughter. The daughter must tell her parents that she is going to marry a foreigner. They think that this is a bad idea. The students plan and perform the discussion in front of the class. You can get hundreds of other ideas from Seventeen Magazine online.

Use music. Download and print the lyrics of popular songs. Play the songs in class and have the students read along. Get them to try to tell you what the songs are about. Try to get them to sing along.

Debate. There are a million debating topics from, "Is the one child policy good for China," to "Should middle school students be allowed to date." Divide your class in half. One side must argue no the other yes. Give them time to prepare. Put your two cents in and argue with them. When you are arguing with them, let them score points on you. Let them win the arguement! This will give them confidence.

Use storytelling. Photocopy pictures from newspapers or magazines. Let the students prepare a story about what the picture is about. Have them stand up and tell the story.

I definately agree that Chinese university students are operating on the emotional level of western teenagers. They need teachers not professors.

[kev7161]

Okay, Talkdoc, now you are just getting a little silly and somewhat defensive. I think I stated a couple of times in my post how what I was writing was in my opinion. Yes, maybe I and Roger and a couple other posters here were a little harsh with you, but we all get it here from time to time; you're 21 years of experience notwithstanding. I've read a mess of your posts and many of them seem insightful and informative. However, even the most perfect of us can drop the ball sometimes and, IN MY OPINION, you did so on this particular thread.

Granted, all of us are going to run our classes the way we see fit (unless our schools give us some specifics on how THEY want us to run them), so your way, in your school, in your classroom, with your students may be just fine. But your methods just don't fly with me when it comes to seemingly not caring whether or not students attend your classes.

By the way, from http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/bare.html

[Talkdoc]

[beck's]

Certainly, I never implied that Chinese university ESL students need "lay" teachers as Talk-Doc suggests. I maintain that, in the best of all worlds, they need professionally trained teachers with a sound knowledge of teaching techniques. They are not best served by traditional style professors who may be highly proficient in their disciplines but who may lack the ability or even the inclination to teach. Happily, Talk-Doc is a exception to this.

I would never argue that career academics are not important to a university. Good universities should always be centers of academic research and innovation. That point should be obvious. However, it is sad that many western universities have under valued teaching for so long, especially at the undergraduate level. We all have stories from our undergrad years of "famous" academics who couldn't teach a dog to bark. This seems to be changing slowly. I recently read that several Canadian universities now give awards for excellence in teaching and one at least has established a chair in teaching.

However, having said all this, our task in China is not research oriented. For the most part it is to teach English conversation with a smattering of literature and western culture. One of our jobs is to motivate our students to enjoy English. I will say once more that this job is the job of teachers not professors, Talk-Doc excepted.

[Talkdoc]

[kev7161]

[Talkdoc]

[beck's]

[Talkdoc]

[cj750]

I would guess that the Doc's method would be suited for an Adult Class..as they pay for the class themselves (or their company does) but in the real world of ESL when results of post class testing (IELTS Prep Classes) and in an employment setting where the rewards of a job well done is continued employment, then attendance is absolutly necessary.
Let us not forget that this is a biz and with that comes an expectation from the folks that pay the bill..the parents, who are the only ones qualified to make the choice as to restricting actions in the class room...as well as taking role...and demanding attendance.
Really, if I let a third of my class walk I would not receive a pay bank transfer that month...performance is noted and there is a requirement that the job gets finished..and that is passing ban scores...in the BC system...yes I am an American but have been working with BC approved schools dealing with 'o' level instruction and Foundation programs..in the end "if the teacher is good then his students pass the test". Maybe in the world of high brow education (that need professors) these kinds of antics canbe tolerated...but in the world of employment for goal based programs ..this kind of thinking will wind you up on the bread line...

[Roger]