Job Discussion Forums

poklapy · Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 6

I see people here mention that to teach in China you legally need a degree and two (or three?) years experience. Most of you don't seem to take this all that seriously, but then many of you don't seem to take the degree seriously either. So I was just wondering how important that requirement is?

marblez · Joined: 24 Oct 2004 Posts: 248 Location: Canada

Most people on Dave's ESL Cafe take the degree requirements very seriously. Do a search for "I got no degree can i teach?" and you'll find that out.

Guest · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:07 pm Post subject:

Yes, most people take the Degree seriously, however there is such a need for conversational English "teachers" in China, that almost anyone can get work here - I am living proof of that.

I now have almost two years experience, but when I arrived here I certainly had no Degrees and no experience. This School welcomed me very warmly and still wish me to stay on as long as I would like to.

If I were you, I would just look for the Schools who do not stipulate the "two years experience" bit- or else come with a Recruiter, and lay your cards on the table with him. Let him do the worrying for you - however watch out for your interests as he will not be doing so.

Talkdoc · Joined: 03 Mar 2004 Posts: 696

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

Readers should keep this in mind. How many SAFEA Accredited institutions are there At last count, I have read, there are only 10,000 out of 350,000.

joe greene · Joined: 21 Mar 2004 Posts: 200

Talkdoc · Joined: 03 Mar 2004 Posts: 696

Joe, that statistic is entirely meaningless whether it is valid or not, for reasons I will explain. (I could not find specific confirmation for the "350,000," but the "10,000" could theoretically be accurate.) What cj750 does not understand is that there is a difference between being SAFEA accredited and receiving authorization to hire foreign experts; they are not one in the same.

SAFEA accreditation (which is simply a voluntary association of affiliated schools willing to pay an annual membership fee) simply signifies that a school has met certain housing, salary and other benefit conditions considered standard (by SAFEA) for foreigners. A school can be authorized to hire foreign experts and choose not to be SAFEA accredited (as most do). One advantage to working for a SAFEA accredited school is that air fare reimbursements are regulated and the foreign income taxes are waived for their employees (tax free income). In reality, and for political reasons, almost all government schools and universities authorized to hire foreign experts are SAFEA accredited.

A few recruiters will also seek SAFEA accreditation as a marketing tool ("Sign up with us because we are approved by the SAFEA or Local Foreign Affairs Office").

The statistic cited by cj750 has absolutely nothing to do with the information I provided.

Doc

tradinup · Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Posts: 132 Location: Shenzhen, China

Well in my situation, I had a degree, but no two years of post-graduate experience. They did issue me a work Visa, but did not give me "foreign expert" status, which of course, means nothing.

Talkdoc · Joined: 03 Mar 2004 Posts: 696

Tradinup - how long ago was that? I am wondering if this was during the period of time when there used to be a distinction between "foreign teacher" and "foreign expert?"

Doc

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

What cj750 does not understand is that there is a difference between being SAFEA accredited and receiving authorization to hire foreign experts; they are not one in the same.

Doc..never said that being SAFEA accredition and receiving authorization to hire foreign experts are one in the same...my offering (and it was just that and nothing more) was based in giving a consideration to the fact that the often quoted SAFEA regulation may be important to a few out of the many schools in China. Anyone who doenst want to abide to the strict guidelines of SAFEA and wants to work in China...may have a chance...if they are just daring enough to make there own way and lay aside advice for those who want to insure their own status.

The one thing that you wrote that I was interested in is the tax-free status that is offered to employees of SAFEA accreditied schools (did I understand you right)..I have not been able to find this provision..but would like to check this one out ...I understand that usually the first 4000RMB of your pay is not taxed and then there is a table that allows for an additonal wright-off...but tax free..let us know about this one...

Talkdoc · Joined: 03 Mar 2004 Posts: 696

There are several references to the benefits of working for a SAFEA accredited school/university on the Internet; here is one: http://www.china-tesol.com/How_to_get_a_Job/More_on_jobs_/Salary_Range_for_foreign_teach/salary_range_for_foreign_teach.html

Unfortunately, the details can only be read directly on the SAFEA website which is almost entirely in Chinese: http://www.safea.gov.cn.

Hainan University is a SAFEA accredited university (as are most government schools) and foreign teachers here are completely exempt from income tax (above the standard 4,000 RMB exemption).

Doc

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

Recently (in responce to a question) I used this site (: http://www.china-tesol.com/How_to_get_a_Job/More_on_jobs_/Salary_Range_for_foreign_teach/salary_range_for_foreign_teach.html) and have found some of the information provided to be at odds with other information provide on this board and elsewhere. For example the advice on visas claim that F visa are used for short term teaching (not lecturing) under 6 months..and this was a bit ofinfo that you have corrected many times...not sure of the "facts" on this site...although they do have the number of SAFEA authorized school at 10000 and this seems to jive with my home office information...I guess this call in question sources of information as most are written in English which may not be the official "last Word".
I am currently trying to work out the tax provisions with the Chinese accounting firm that handles our account and would like to have a sound reference for the no tax at SAFEA member schools...not sure how joining a organiztion can make it's Foreign Teacher's income tax free, the accountants are stating some WTO regulation ...I do know that some schools tell there teachers that taxes do not have to be paid...but to exchange money over a certain ammount or to proceed with other admin endevors...I need to show my tax receipt...do you have a tax exempt cert that allows you to exchange money legally...at any rate to the OP
if anything ...these post should show you how confusing the system is and indicate it is a try and see....

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

Recently (in responce to a question) I used this site (: http://www.china-tesol.com/How_to_get_a_Job/More_on_jobs_/Salary_Range_for_foreign_teach/salary_range_for_foreign_teach.html) and have found some of the information provided to be at odds with other information provide on this board and elsewhere. For example the advice on visas claim that F visa are used for short term teaching (not lecturing) under 6 months..and this was a bit ofinfo that you have corrected many times...not sure of the "facts" on this site...although they do have the number of SAFEA authorized school at 10000 and this seems to jive with my home office information...I guess this call in question sources of information as most are written in English which may not be the official "last Word".
I am currently trying to work out the tax provisions with the Chinese accounting firm that handles our account and would like to have a sound reference for the no tax at SAFEA member schools...not sure how joining a organiztion can make it's Foreign Teacher's income tax free, the accountants are stating some WTO regulation ...I do know that some schools tell there teachers that taxes do not have to be paid...but to exchange money over a certain ammount or to proceed with other admin endevors...I need to show my tax receipt...do you have a tax exempt cert that allows you to exchange money legally...at any rate to the OP
if anything ...these post should show you how confusing the system is and indicate it is a try and see....If you want to come to China and work as a teacher I wouldn't let anyone dissuade you from seeking any position that would consider your experience or lack of....be careful and make sure you drop bread crumbs so you can find your way back home...

Talkdoc · Joined: 03 Mar 2004 Posts: 696

CJ - you are rambling. Take a few deep breaths and try to relax.

There is absolutely nothing confused or confusing about the information that I posted. What I wrote was clear and precise and has been confirmed by Kang Baiying, the deputy director of the Hainan provincial foreign affairs office (and she confirmed it as Beijing's official position).

If you (or anyone else) have something tangible, definitive and authoritative to cite that specifically contradicts this confirmed information then please share it (neither your third-party link nor the statistic regarding SAFEA accreditation does). The fact that you are confused about SAFEA accreditation, tax benefits, the difference between lecturing gratis on an F-Visa for the purposes of cultural exchange vs. teaching in a school on a Z-Visa for income, or anything else for that matter, does not impact upon the integrity and veracity of the information that I posted. But, by all means, prospective teachers should be absolutely dissuaded by all the gross misinformation that circles around here like fallen leaves on a late autumn day in New York.

If you, the OP, or anyone else, has questions about this information, please feel free to contact me or your provinical FAO deputy director. If you would like to contact deputy director Kang Baiying directly, I'm sure she'd be happy to answer your questions as well.

Finally, the laws regarding who can teach in China and under what set of circumstances are clear enough: that some private schools exploit the fact that enforcement of these laws currently varies considerably between provinces (as I carefully outlined above) should not confuse anyone as to what constitutes teaching legally in China. Since becoming involved in this topic, I have heard more interesting and unique unsubstantiated versions of the law than I could have ever possibly imagined on my own. (A good friend, in fact, recently told me that by changing the word "teach" to "lecture" in the contract, a school could "legally" hire a foreigner on an F-Visa; of course that is not true, for several reasons, but it was very creative on the part of the school to try it).

Some have argued here that a law without enforcement means nothing. If that argument impresses and comforts you; go for it. Just keep in mind that, regarding law enforcement in China vis a vis foreign teachers, what was true today, may not be true tomorrow. There has been at least one report on this forum of one individual being deported for not having met the experience requirement. And although I don't suspect that this is the norm, it didn't surprise me when I read it: which is why I feel strongly that we have an obligation to accurately inform prospective teachers about the laws as well as the conflicting realities in China - so they can make intelligent and informed decisions (and be willing to assume whatever risks might be involved with them).

Greg Mavrides
[email protected]

Kang Baiying
[email protected]

peggiescott · Joined: 20 Mar 2004 Posts: 162

On the OP's question. The SAFEA docs state that one needs "two years experience" That's it. Not two years experience teaching ESL or even just two years experience teaching.

I came here with no "teaching" experience. My background (the part they cared about) is in alternative science education. Museums, university enrichment programs for K-12 students, that sort of thing. I obtained my Z visa before I left the States and have a Foreign Expert's Certificate. I work at a public college. Did my recruiter lie? I don't think so.

A new arrival in our little berg has a background in social work and led life skills classes. They have both the Z visa and the Foreign Expert's Certificate.

One does not need a teaching degree to qualify for a FEC so it seems counter productive to require teaching experience. Where does someone get teaching experience without a teaching degree? Yes, I know it's possible, but that really narrows the field of people who qualify.

So, the question is, what sort of experience do they want? I don't know, I would like to know because when I apply for a job next year I will only have one year of "teaching" experience.

Peggie