Job Discussion Forums

[ghost]

[scot47]

Ghost

Arabic is difficult - partly becasue oif the marked "diglossia", or disparity between spoken forms and written forms.

As for students not being able to speak the langauge I have met students of Modern Languages in the UK who could not hold a basic converstaiuon in the language they were supposedly studying.

Why do so many Anglophones have such problems in learning foreign languages ?

[BCopeland]

Well Ghost, do you know what advice I have for you and McGill? Go abroad!

Really, I do believe that part of the problem with learning Arabic language in the west is the fact that the language is not used daily. While I agree that McGill is a splendid university, I don't think that they should be the sole factor in deciding whether or not the Arabic language is difficult.

I hate to say it, however me and my friends found it odd that the students coming from western universities to Cairo would have such horrible language, but would be considered "specialists" of Arabic by western standards. They would pay bundles to their respective universities, but you could not see the progress.

To reiterate, when the Arabic language becomes a barrier between you and whether or not you eat, then language acquisition takes on a whole new meaning. That is what happened to me in Cairo! Either you learn how to survive and get by with the language, or you fail and go home!

Believe me ghost, I said it before and I'll say it again, Arabic language was not that hard to learn, especially in an Arabic speaking country. Just because you and McGill had a little bit of difficulty, doesn't mean that everyone does!

Submerge your students in an Arabic speaking country for more than a semester. Give them a good two years abroad and you'll notice a big difference. Not to mention that motivation varies between students. I had a strong desire to be one of the only Americans to graduate from prestigious Al Azhar University and nothing was going to stand in my way. Perhaps that's the attitude that's not being exhibited in students from McGill.

Many of the students you would see in Cairo, would be more worried about travelling and seeing the sights than they would be getting their noses in the books. They were too busy trying to find that rich high-class apartment in a city where the local is lucky to make a hundred dollars a month, than they would be their academics.

They weren't willing to struggle and live like a Cairene even for a semester for the greater good of their academics. It was quite frustrating to put in all that hardwork on an Azhar stipend (80 Egyptian pounds a month), then turn around and see the "Fullbrighter" taking vacations every weekend on big-time university money in excess of 2000 - 2500 a month. For what? To have to write a 10 page paper about their experiences at the end of the semester! What a pity! While in Azhar, I would sometimes have to memorize whole written works!!

Looks like to me your students at McGill need a little tough love!

B. Copeland

[justme]

I used to know a lot of students studying Arabic at the Defense Langauge Institute in the States. They had all the problems of the external factors of language learning that ghost and BCopeland mention above, and also the diglossia problem that scot47 points out. Also, I suspect that there aren't very many interesting and communicative Arabic learning textbooks out there (but I don't know this for sure). They sure don't have them at DLI, where they're still really into the Direct Approach.

But the one thing that put all the members of our good armed forces off of Arabic was that in the beginning of the course, they studied only phonetics and pronunciation for about a month, and they all would have terrible sore throats and laryngitis from those glottal sounds!

In the end, isn't the notion of language difficulty mostly a matter of where you're coming from?

[31]

It is no wonder they had problems language learning with those 70s has beens at the DLI at Lackland Air Force Base in Texas. The dli material which is still being used in the gulf among other places is the most tedious out of date rubbish imaginable. It has to be seen and taught to be believed.

Sadly they are revamping the dli and are doing 3 books a year. It will have pictures woopee.

[BCopeland]

Yea...source texts for the Arabic language in English are seriously lacking. I guess that I was lucky to learn my Arabic in Arabic starting with some pretty classical texts.

I have heard of the book referred to as the "Orange Book" as being one of the better texts, however even this book was pretty elementary.

New texts need to be done. A fair amount of grammar, syntax, rhetoric, immersion, expression, idioms, vocabulary, etc need to be given equal time.

It would be interesting! Plus, having no glottal letters in the English language puts a hurtin' so to speak on our voice boxes. I can second that sore throat scenerio. However with time the Arabic 'Ayn becomes as easy to pronounce as any other English letter.

B. Copeland

[BCopeland]

My original question centered on whether or not 1500 USD would be enough for a family of 4 to live on. Many have said no, while others have said that it is possible.

For those who think that 1500 is not enough...how much do you think is enough for a family of 4?

B. Copeland

[dmb]

Did we go off topic? Others have already said. It really depends on your lifestyle. I admit that I live in a little expat bubble most of the time. So leading the semi hedonistic single life that I do I would find 1500 dollars a month a tad difficult. However, the minimum wage in Turkey is somewhere around the 400 YTL mark(I'm sure someone can supply the exact figure) Many families, bigger than yours, survive on this. Live like the locals and eat like like the locals and 1500 would probably be sufficient.

[Faustino]

My family situation is fairly similar to yours, B. Copeland. PM me if you want to know details.

[ghost]

[BCopeland]

Ghost,

Don't flater yourself! I in no way claim to be a linguistic genius, however I did not find Arabic language to be difficult to learn given the circumstances. I think that what I did is quite average compared to the students that I met while in Cairo.

Again, don't equate your own Arabic language difficiencies with everyone else. I have always been ok with languages even as a teenager. It's possible to learn the Arabic language quicker than you think.

Anyways, it would be nice to sit down with you to see just how "exaggerated" my Arabic is...given that the conversation is solely in Arabic!

Seems to me that you have a little bit of a problem with someone maybe being a little more skilled than you. Don't be so pessimistic!

B. Copeland

[BCopeland]

"Assuming the former - keep in mind, once again, that studies show time and again that arabic is an extremely challenging language to learn, and even fluent arabophones concede that aspects of arabic grammar are beyond them and too complex to bother about. If Copeland achieved intermediate or above capacity in the time he lived in Cairo and other places - then hats off to him."

Not to mention ghost, that most of the arabophones from the west weren't reading the works of Ibn Hisham, Sibawayh, Al Marghinani, and others to start. You must remember that my coarse of study was put together by Arabs for Arabs. Being the scholar that you are, you must of heard of Al Azhar?!

They have very stringent rules about who enters the university and what one must be able to comprehend before graduation! Oftentimes having to recite whole texts.

I had classes that were solely for the memorization of certain texts. You literally had to sit down in front of the instructor and recite whole portions of the text depending on which section the instructor started from.

For example, he would start a verse, then it was your responsibility to finish it up to the next few pages. Then this would continue throughout the book until he was satisfied that you had memorized the text. Just one of the suttle differences in the way things are taught in the Arab world.

They have keen memories and expect everyone one else to have one too. So either you put up or shut up was the name of the game. A bit challenging...yes! Impossible...NO!

B. Copeland[/quote]

[31]

[ghost]

[Faustino]

Did Ghost have a family and children with it during its brief stay in Turkey? Did Ghost try to support this family and children in Istanbul? Does Ghost have a clue what it is talking about?