Job Discussion Forums

[melissa11]

I have been reading a few posts about needing a degree to be legally employed and obtaining a z visa. I have only my TESOL certificate and my high school diploma, but I have been employed by a school and I am waiting now for my confirmation and invitation which has already been approved to arrive here so I can apply for my z visa. ???????

[tofuman]

"Guide for Foreign Experts Working in China" p. 46, 1999 ed. says: "This certificate [foreign experts invitation confirmation] proves that the State Bureau of Foreign Experts Affairs agrees that the holder come to China as an expert and asks the Chinese Embassy or Consulate to issue Visa Z according to the regulations concerned."

Your school may lie without your knowledge to expedite your arrival. Once you have your Foreign Experts Invitation Confirmation from the school and obtain your Visa Z from the Chinese Embassy, you are legal.

Without the Expert's Confirmation and Visa Z in hand, I would not consider coming unless you want to expose yourself to inconceivable abuse and exploitation.

[anthyp]

[tofuman]

Page 48, op. cit.: "What is the Foreign Experts Certificate and how to apply for it? This certificate is necessary for foreign experts working in China to prove their identity and apply for residence permits.To apply for it, the work unit should present the introduction letter from the authoritative agent; cultural and educational experts should present the contract, agreement between the governmnents or universities, Visa Z or its duplicate, and 2 personal photos."

I know of one person without a bachelor's degree that honestly came into possession of all of the above documents. The Chinese people with whom he is associated are pathological liars, so it is possible that they falsified information without his knowledge.

A person with a Confirmation Letter and Visa Z should have no problem getting an Expert's Certificate, as I see it; however, I am one little man way out in the provinces.

[anthyp]

Another day, another Visa issue to hash over ... well then let's get down to brass tacks.

[tofuman]

True that the book is 5 years old but it is the one they gave me 1.5 years ago. Page 40, op. cit. says, in response to the question, "Who can be considered Foreign Experts working in China?" "They should hold bachelor's degrees and have more than two years experience."

From the SAFEA site: "These refer to those experts who are employed by the Chinese schools and other educational establishments in such fields as publication, medicine, scientific research, culture and art, and sports. They should hold bachelor's degrees and have more than two years of experience."

Note the subjunctive "should." It doesn't say "must." I can't say why the school chose to hire an individual without a bachelor's degree, but since he has all necessary documents, and was truthful when he applied to the school, he did no wrong of which I am aware. His employer is a government agency with thousands of students It also employs a full time representative of the Communist Party who welcomed the FT into the school.

It is not a "shady" operation. There are some individuals who have expertise that supercedes the letter of the law, even if "should" did mean must, which it does not. Someone with a B.A. in history or anthropology, often unemployable in the USA, is hardly an expert here or anywhere else. Bachelor's degree or equivalent is really what they want.


For example, a person can attend law school and become a member of the bar without a bachelor's degree. Are you suggesting that someone with a B.A. in anthropology is an expert and the attorney is not, because he lacks a bachelor's degree? Some medical schools accept individuals without bachelor's degrees as well, based upon their completion of pre-med requirements, as do pharmacy schools. A person might have a J.D., M.D., or Pharm.D. without a bachelor's degree.

The point of the law is to keep morons out. Obviously, it has not succeeded, but they try.

[Talkdoc]

[tofuman]

Doc,

You may be right about the school falsifying the individual's qualifications, although that may not be the case.

I didn't say you can practice law without law school, I said that one may be admitted to law school without a bachelor's degree, as well as pharmacy and medical school. You are right about "clerking." A few years ago it was still legal in at least one state, but probably quite rare.

The idea that one must have at least a bachelor's degree implies that lots of master's qualified individuals are eager to teach conversational English in China. Unless the person is a linguist or truly a "teacher" there are few reasons for a master's qualified individual to come to China

It is possible that some people who poorly planned their education in terms of job opportunities are eager to work here, but those unfortunate people are exactly the type of losers who should avoid this place like the plague. They will actually needthe job, and that is an invitation to abuse and exploitation. One thing that keeps me here is the knowledge that I can leave anytime and return to better circumstances than I've got here.

To get back to the original point, the intent of the law is to make sure that FTs are literate individuals who can clearly articulate English.

People who blindly follow any kind of law, without a view to its intent, are foolish.

[Talkdoc]

[tofuman]

"The four-year program leads to the PharmD degree.... Entering students are expected to have completed a minimum of two to four years of undergraduate work in the biological and chemical sciences as well as general education areas prior to application to the program (see full list of prerequisites and admissions information). A bachelor's degree is preferred. "

From a California school of pharmacy. The same school does not require a bachelor's degree to study medicine.

Many non ABA accredited law schools, if not all, in CA admit students with two year degrees. McGeorge law school, which is ABA accredited, says a candidate MUST have a bachelors's degree.

Many different schools do offer "special student status" admission for older, exceptional, or non-traditional students. After all, Petulia Pet should have opportunities to advance herself just as much as the next person.


Anyway, it sounds as if we agree on the intent of the law.

[Talkdoc]