Job Discussion Forums

[bulgogiboy]

I'm deciding between two jobs right now, one in Zhuhai, China(right next to Macau), and one in Tokyo. Both jobs appeal to me but I'm wondering which salary will give me the better lifestyle/savings(if any).

Of course, 250,000 yen is much more than 5000 rmb but when you compare the cost of living and the fact i'll have a free apartment in Zhuhai...

I suppose the advantage of Tokyo might be that there are lots of opportunities for extra work, but in Zhuhai i'll get free Chinese lessons as well. Paying for that in Tokyo would probably cost a fortune. Can you get free Japanese lessons in Tokyo? I've heard the government provides them in some cities. I've been to Japan a couple of times but only for the overnight Korean visa-run, so I don't have a proper idea of the cost of living.

Any pople who have lived Japan AND a small city in China who can give me some advice?

thanks,

[fluffyhamster]

If you won't even be getting the set-up paid on an apartment in Japan, that could put a really big dent in whatever savings you've already got and take months to save back up (e.g. I paid over 300,000 yen to move into the apartment I have now. I might get about 120,000 yen of that back when I move out, but there are clauses in the contract that whittle away at that deposit).

On the other hand, if you are taking over an apartment from a current teacher and will only be paying the rent and ulilities, what, that's maybe 60-70,000 yen a month, which leaves you with, say, 170,000 yen (you'll be paying about 10,000 tax tops). That's 1624 dollars, which converted into RMB is almost 13,500 RMB. Almost three times the money you'll be making in China, in your hand.

Now, of course Japan is *more expensive*, and Tokyo has a lot more temptations than Zhuhai (probably), but even if you save like mad in China, you won't ever be able to make up that 8,500 RMB (over 1000 dollar) difference. I am imagining that even with all the things you could blow your money on Japan, you will still end up with more in your pocket at the end of the month than will ever be possible in China. Basically, in Japan you will, at any one time, have far more spending power, even if you don't save as much as you'd hoped (and I still think you'll be able to save more in Japan even discounting the differences in living expenses), plus, what you will be spending your money on will probably get you better quality and ultimately value for money than in China (I'm not talking food here, but apartment, clothing etc). As for the lessons, you can set up exchange ones, and even if you have to pay for lessons, they will not be a huge expense.

For the record, I lived in Shanghai for two years (OK, not a small city, but still) and am now living in Tokyo. Although I enjoyed China, if my prioritiy were saving money I would choose Japan (and bear in mind that I was earning 8000 RMB in Shanghai, with free accomodation)...but as i say, if you have to pay for the apartment set-up, that really may be too big a hole blown in your savings to ever readily fill back in again (I think it might irk you - it did me).

[bulgogiboy]

Thanks fluffyhamster,


Actually, there's no big expense with the apartment. It's fully-furnished, probably a shoe-box but what do you expect in Tokyo, and it would cost me 70,000 a month out of my paycheck. It's also a short walk from the school so there would be no commuting costs either.

Yeah, you're right I think. At least with the 250,000 yen you have the money in the first place, and you can make an effort to save some by being sensible. 10,000 tax isn't bad at all either.

I don't drink that much for a TEFL teacher, just once a week, often in my apartment while watching a rented movie. I'm wondering if alot of claims of hardship are made by teachers who go out drinking in bars alot? Even in Korea you could kill your salary by drinking in western-style bars on a regular basis.

A big advantage of the China job is 4 and a half hours of free Chinese lessons every week. I'd definitely want to study Japanese if I went there, but you don't have any idea how much a course at a language school costs?

By the way, I hear Zhuhai has lots of temptations...

[fluffyhamster]

Well, with your sort of lifestyle, it sounds like you'll be able to put away a lot in your first year no problem.

I said 'first year' there because I should tell you that Japan can become quite a bit more expensive into your second year. Your health insurance will leap from about 1000 yen per month to anywhere between 20,000 and 30,000 yen, and if your employer is not covering it, that is obviously a lot to be shelling out if you are in good health.

If your employer is not paying it, you should check out the threads on this subject in the Japan forum. (I recall people saying that there is no legal obligation to keep paying into the government scheme, and I know that one of my employers suggested that I simply stop paying it after the first year - when the booklet of payment slips from the city hall near my previous job, where I'd registered for it along with my foreigner's ID card/residency permit, ran out - and instead join the private health insurance scheme the company was offering (under 10,000 yen per month).

Then, you become liable for local tax, which can also be a few "man" (multiples of tens of thousands of yen) per month.

So, in a second year in Japan that nice big juicy 170,000 yen could drop by a good 30,000 yen at least, and would be more if you don't find an employer who offers private health insurance less than the government scheme or who pays the government one for you still.

But the first year at least would be great, so I'd still suggest you try Japan for at least a year...then maybe move onto China the next (it could still be a big shock, though, dropping from 130-140,000 yen/over 10,000 RMB down to 5000 RMB!). BTW I know 5000 RMB may be kind of the average, but you can find jobs that pay more if you are "qualified" (e.g. CELTA) and with some experience (I'm guessing you have a degree and CELTA-level qualification because you can command a reasonable minimum in Japan already, and after the year in Japan the experience will be a given too to command a higher wage in China, probably!)

I'll try to find out the costs of Japanese language school courses for you.

[Glenski]

Expect to spend the following in Tokyo:

Rent 70,000
Utilities 20,000 (average, seasonal)
Groceries 30,000 (depending on your habits)
National Health Insurance 2500 (not 1000) in your 1st year
Phone 5000-8000 (depending on various options, and not including setup)

That's 125,000 per month, or half of your salary.

ANYTHING else you want will eat into that. Postage stamps, cable TV, sightseeing, gifts/souvenirs, long distance calls, reading material, etc. Going out a couple nights a week and drinking conservatively will drain you by another 30,000 to 50,000 easily. And, if you have payments to make back home (student loans, mortgage, car payments, etc.), figure those in, too.

Yes, you can get private lessons in Tokyo. Why not? It has millions of people. Just be careful with any clauses against that in your contract, illegal though they may be. There are plenty of online services to help you search for them these days. Never heard of the government helping.

[fluffyhamster]

When I mentioned 60-70,000 for rent and utilities, I didn't actually know how much the rent was (70,000 yen as it turned out), and was imagining it might be 50,000 yen plus (as you say, Glenski) about 20,000 yen for utilities. I'm sure bulgogiboy could work these things out for himself (and knew he'd have to get groceries, stamps, cable TV, sightseeing, gifts/souvenirs, long distance calls, reading material, booze, broads or gigolos, drugs, pay off the debt collectors etc etc on top of all this), and to be honest I was getting a bit tired of doing the sums for him. But while we're talking figures, I myself think 70,000 yen is a bit high for what could be a grotty little broomcupboard miles (and expensive train fares) away from the more exciting parts of Tokyo, but seeing as there are no set-up costs I suppose he'll just have to take it or leave it.

Sorry, but National Health Insurance WAS 1,000 yen per month in Matsuyama, I have no idea what it is in Sapporo, but OK I will take your word for it G that it's 2,500 yen in Tokyo (not that that's a huge difference, or that it will matter a gnat's ass if it's the employer who's paying it, I guess B will have to check on that and get back to us if he's a really tight-fisted penny-pinching ungenerous bargain-hunting second-hand-only-book-buying frantic-for-freebies "poverty-stricken" economizing typical foreigner).

Having addressed those irritating peeves I had with being corrected down to the last yen, I'd like to add that setting up a phone line in Japan should not involve any expense beyond paying a basic rental of under 3,000 yen (I am assuming a line has already been installed which has an existing number or can easily be assigned a new one), and if you approach e.g. Yahoo BB they will in turn approach NTT for you so you can get a modem and phone line at the same time. The combined cost will be under 7,000 yen for basic Yahoo ISP/modem and NTT line rental (they will issue you with separate bills).

Anyway 70K plus say 30K for utilities and phone/internet (without making international calls or too many calls to mobile phones) is only 100K per month, the NI is negligible in the first year regardless of who's paying it, so you will have OVER half your salary to do what you like with - eat, drink, play or save save save. The main point is, still, that is much more money than you would be earning in China.

BTW G, B was more asking about taking Japanese lessons, rather than offering private English lessons to whoever, but I am sure that if B really wants (needs?) to make some extra money that way he would soon start doing it, regardless of what his contract says.

[bulgogiboy]

Thanks again,


I was hoping to stay for a couple of years, so the increases in taxes,etc. will affect me but there's not alot I can do about it. I liked the tax system in Korea which is consistent and ridiciulously low no matter how long you stay, but then you have to take the rough with the smooth. I realise that sometimes you have to sacrifice things in order to have the experience you want. I'd be happy saving 50,000 yen a month as long as I was enjoying myself: eating a decent diet, having a couple of beers at the weekend, meeting women, and learning the language.

I'm not paying off any debts so any money I don't spend is savings for me. In Korea, my savings were about 900-1000 US per month depending on what kind of alcohol I chose to drink. An advantage of Japan over Korea is that the domestic beer brands don't actually taste like urine(at least Asahi and Sapporo don't). You have to pay up to twice as much(or more) in Korea for a decent imported beer. I've been to Japan twice before(Fukuoka), and I think Asahi was about 150-200 yen a can from the 7-11. That's a little cheaper than Korea. The last time I went was over a year ago so the prices have probably gone up. In an Irish bar the price of a pint of guinness was about 900 yen, again cheaper than Seoul, and the stuff in Japan wasn't watered down! Have prices changed much?

I think the apartment might come with a free computer and broadband connection already, it's described as 'low-cost' broadband, which is a tad vague though.

Actually, I don't have a CELTA but my MA is in English9doesn't make me a better teacher but it impresses some employers), and I have 2 and a half years experience. I might look for private lessons but i'm more interested in learning Japanese than earning extra money.

I'd appreciate any info about Japanese language courses, thanks fluffy.

BB

[bulgogiboy]

By the way, a landline isn't essential is it? In Korea I just had a mobile phone, and I used a Pre-paid system. You stick the cash in and when it's used up you need to buy more.

Can't you do that in Japan? Is it a hassle to get a mobile phone if you're a foreigner?

BB

[fluffyhamster]

Hi again B, I checked out an issue of Metropolis magazine (a free Tokyo news and lifestyle magazine in English - they also have a website, good movie reviews!), and here are some of the rates for Japanese lessons:

Alpha Japanese School - 'Beginner's Intensive Course 31,500 yen/month'
OLJ Language Academy - 'Intensive Course 60 hours for a month, Min. ￥770~ /hour (tax included)'
Ginza Gaigo Salon - 'Private program ￥21,000~/month Semi-private ￥14,000~/month; New Year One-day lunch time lessons for beginners! No registration Fee! No Text Fee! ￥5000 per lesson. All lessons include a small Japanese lunch box.'
JACS Institute - 'Private lesson 3000yen/h~'
www.alpha.ac.jp
www.learning-japanese.jp
www.ginzagaigo.com
www.jacsjacs.jp

http://metropolis.japantoday.com/tokyo/recent/movies.asp

I had a few Japanese lessons as part of the in-Japan induction phase whilst on the JET Programme, and presuming that school (in Sapporo) was anything to go by, the sort of JFL lessons you'll get will be similar to more grammar-focused EFL/ESL ones (obviously if you have a reasonable level of Japanese already and/or request private lessons then the approach will alter to take those factors into consideration). But generally I think students can make as much if not more progress (and obviously save a lot of money into the bargain), especially in the earlier or more advanced (i.e. other than intermediate) stages of learning a language simply by getting hold of some decent self-study books, dictionaries, usage manuals etc (go to the Shinjuku South Store branch of Kinokuniya, details here: http://www.kinokuniya.co.jp/english/contents/offices.html , much bigger than the older Shinjuku "Main" Store), and when you are at an intermediate stage you could be making friends with Japanese people and asking them the occassional question (if and when necessary or appropriate), rather than trusting to some potentially clueless teacher who may feel compelled to make everything a lot more complicated than it really needs to be.
http://www.englishdroid.com/assets/revolutionary.jpg
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/teacher/viewtopic.php?p=14496#14496

Some cities (local cities within the Tokyo area) may offer volunteery kind of classes or workshops from Japanese people keen to meet foreigners and introduce them to various aspects of Japanese culture, life and language, but I've never taken these kind of classes so I can't really say if they are specifically geared to teaching the language or if you'd learn in a particularly efficient manner (could be a good way to make contacts, and a pleasant way to pass a Sunday afternoon though). You'll get leaflets about this kind of stuff (and English booklets about local services - city hall departments and contact details, post offices, banking, refuse collection, emergency procedures etc) when you got to register your work and residence details to get your foreign ID and Health Insurance cards issued (make sure you do this as soon as possible after arriving in Japan, your employer will doubtless remind you).

Edit: Metropolis also has smaller classified ads, posted by individual teachers or teaching agencies/teacher databases, that offer cheaper rates for private lessons; then, there are "Language exchange" ads...but I won't give details of either because such arrangements are probably more prone to changes than the more "serious", established schools mentioned above. Pick up a copy of the magazine once you've arrived (available from shops such as Tower Records).

Unfortunately if you want an internet connection you will need to pay NTT the basic rental for the landline: although there are now competing ISPs, they do not in themselves provide a line (or if they do, the price you'll end up paying will be roughly the same as e.g. Yahoo BB internet connection fee + NTT line rental - I had a friend check out one of the companies offering a so-called "special deal", thinking I would save money by getting rid of NTT, but it wouldn't've saved me any money and would've been a hassle to start over again, waiting days if not weeks to be reconnected etc). It might be possible to run your PC through a mobile phone link or something like that, but I imagine the download speeds would be very slow, and the by-minute fees prohibitive (Yahoo BB is a flat monthly rate, regardless of hours spent connected). 'Low-cost' broadband should, as I said, be no more than 4,000 yen per month (plus NTT line rental of under 3,000 yen for a total of about 7,000 yen), and if it's any more, it could be because you have an unnecessarily fast modem package or something (connected to a prehistoric fizzing junction box/station just down the road - not that a more basic modem will be a lot slower, is what I'm trying to say. Yahoo BB can check these sort of things for you e.g. your distance from the relay stations etc if you ask them at BIC Camera, or Yodobashi Camera, and suggest the sort of modem beyond which you would not make any significant gains speed-wise. I know almost nothing about computers, this is just what the guys at BIC told me when they flogged me the CHEAPEST deal - so they weren't trying to trick me or anything, it was what I needed and no more, and the download speeds seem fine).

Regarding mobiles, you can get prepaid phones from convenience stores or the mobile phone companies' outlets simply by presenting proof of address (your foreigner ID card). I don't know how much a basic package now costs, but probably a fair bit less than the 10,000 yen I paid for mine (because the models are being improved all the time, so as a model ages it naturally comes down in price). For that 10,000 yen I got the phone, recharger/mains adaptor, and 3,000 yen of credit. The credit lasts for about six months and can be topped up by buying scratch-off cards and/or PIN numbers at convenience stores, online with credit cards etc, available in 3,000 or 5,000 yen top-ups (for the Vodafone Preca system). There is no rental fee with these prepaid phones, but their drawbacks are that the models are very basic (some of the snazzier ones are the folding type, though, with 2 megapixel cameras built into them etc), without internet connection of any kind, and the per-minute call charges can be quite high (e.g. 60 yen/minute), but you can send emails ("Skymail") up to 150 characters long or so for 5 yen a pop so it's not so bad. One last thing, though, I heard that the government might be trying to stop these kind of phones from being sold in the future (they seem to be favoured by criminals or something, due to the one-time-only intitial contact and then anonymous continued usage possible), but I hope that isn't true/doesn't happen, because they are convenient if you want to avoid rental fees and don't use your mobile like a fashion accessory to call some "friend" to ask important questions such as 'Where are you now?' every five minutes.

Beer seems to be around the same price, a 330ml can is still under 200 yen (I am used to about 250 yen for 500ml size cans!). They now legally have to include the 5% consumption tax in the displayed price, so expect prices to seem a little higher now (although the actual final amount you're paying will be more or less the same as before). I haven't been out drinking (well, at least not alchohol! Nomusugimash*ta ne! Doctor stoppu!) in Irish-style bars for a long time but I would be surprised if you'd have to pay more than 900 yen for a Guiness still.

So, all in all, you should easily be able to save 50,000 yen per month if you put your mind and willpower towards it!

[distiller]

You need to factor in quality of life as well. I've been to Zhuhai and it is one of the most charachter free, boring places in China. Some friends did a TEFl course there a few years ago and it nearly drove them mad. Also it is about an hour or so boat ride from Hong Kong and that is where a lot of people's money goes. Zhuhai has a popultion consisting mostly of frsh immigrants so it is not exactly a bastion of the thousands of years of Chinese culture you find elswhere. It may still be worth it but you ought to know what you're getting yourself into.

[bulgogiboy]

Thanks fluffyhamster,


I appreciate you taking the time to explain a few things to me. I still haven't decided yet though!

And thanks also to the distiller, though I suppose one man's heaven can be another man's hell. I'd actually heard from alot of people that Zhuhai was a really nice, clean, modern city and from others that it was a really sleazy city. Suits me either way!

[fluffyhamster]

Japan! Must...pick...Japan! China - NOOOOO!!!