Job Discussion Forums

[ImanH]

The manner in which private universities are discussed on this forum I find to be fascinating and I am really interested in starting a friendly discussion regarding higher education in general but especially the role of private universities (and by extension, I suppose, schools) in Turkey.
Just how bad are these and why? When I say �bad� I include every aspect: quality of students, academics employed, facilities, role/centrality of research, methods of teaching, education provided, ratio of students to lecturers, and so on.
For example, it is often commented that private universities are places where a degree can be bought. However, I don�t see how that is possible unless the implication is that every academic in these institutions is corrupt. Presumably these students still have to pass their classes? What precisely is meant buy bought? If it is a reference is to the fact that these students can continue on to higher education because they can afford the fees, does it then follow that their degrees are worthless? Does the fact that these are fee-paying institutions automatically mean the education students receive is of a poor quality?
The fact that these students come from wealthy families appears to be central to attitudes towards them/their education. I am curious as to how this is seen as relevant, precisely. For a variety of reasons, higher socio-economic status is correlated with higher levels of education. I would imagine the majority of the students at Bogacizi are wealthy too. In which case, is it the fact that they are wealthy that is relevant or the fact that some businessman has seen an opportunity that is relevant? Does the fact that they are wealthy but not especially academically gifted mean that they are entitled to no higher education? In the UK these students would be accommodated in the less �prestigious� universities, but given the ratio of potential students to existing state university places, this is not a possibility here. Is it, therefore, the fact that their wealth means that they can get around this by attending fee paying institutions, while poorer individuals cannot which is the issue? Given how much competition there is in Turkey for state university places, would it not stand to reason that some of these students are actually pretty good?
I am genuinely confused about why these universities are consistently presented as being so bad � money seems to be at the heart of this but the reasons why precisely seem to be all tangled up.
Anyway, some thoughts to begin with. Anyone else?
I am particularly interested in hearing from people who have actually taught in these institutions.

[molly farquharson]

I actually taught at Koc University and not in the hazirlik program. I taught writing and presentation skills. Koc sets high standards for the OSS and also offers scholarships to about 10% of the students. They are the brightest of the bright. There are lots of wealthy students there, but most, aside from the scholarship students, are upper middle class. I would say that the standards for the students and the faculty are high. Faculty are in publish or perish land and those who don't produce are not continued on. I have proofread papers for several professors, so I have seen some evidence of the scholarships there, and I would say it is as substantial as any in the US. Most of the professors studied and/or taught in the US, as the univ follows a US model. there is some pressure to pass students, but at the same time, if a student is really lazy or dishonest (can you say "plagiarism"?) he or she is caught and taken to the committee. Some are actually expelled.

I know Koc was set up as a vakif by a wealthy family, but I have no problem with that. I think it is appropriate for the wealthy in Turkey to try to help the country develop, and education is essential for that. I also know that Koc was built in a forest under somewhat dubious circumstances, but the campus was built on land that had been previously deforested and in fact the univ has reforested it to a great extent (I have seen the photos).

I think one of the problems is that many people resent rich people and resent anything they do, so it becomes damned if you do and damned if you don't. I have met several members of the Koc family and they are not slavering capitalist dogs. They have invested incredible amounts of money into the Turkish economy, and of course they have made piles of money too. They own about 100 companies which employ thousands of people. How can that hurt? Many Koc graduates go to work for Koc companies, though a lot also go to work for their families' businesses.

If there weren't private universities, where would students go? professors at public universities are paid a pittance, which often means that they could give a rip about their jobs. There are already too many students for the slots in all the universities, and I guess bottom line is even a poor education is better than none at all.

From what I hear Sabanci Univ is very similar to Koc in its standards. Some other private univs may be dodgy, but I think these two at least are pretty good.

[31]

I worked at a private uni for 4 years back in the 90s and would like to add my comments. These comments are NOT about Koc, Sabanci or Fatih.

Quality of SS
Private unis are businesses whose aim is to make as much money as possible. They dress it all up as foundations, scholarships etc. but they are just private companies. The uni I worked at accepted anyone who could pay the fees. They accepted monthly payment of fees(taksit) and gave discounts for early payment. In theory students had to have 120 points but could take a special skills exam which everybody passed. True the scholarship students were great and there were a few who had slipped through the net but I would say 80 per cent were not uni material. Most of the boys were avoiding military service and knew that when they had to do their year they would get a cushy officer job for the year. Why do private unis have more boys than girls?

Academics
Private unis employ names to give it a reputation and to get free publicity. Of course they prefer to have teachers from good unis but are loathe to employ graduates from other private unis.

Facilities

Generally apalling. How many private unis have campuses in the British or American sense of the word? Most are just single buildings. No lakes or labs.

Research

Almost none apart from what the names do on the side.
How many private unis have PHD students?

How to buy a degree

What happened at the uni I worked at was this. SS came to prep and had to sit through 80% of a 28 hour programme. At the end of the year all marks between 30 and 59 were changed to 60 by the Head of Prep. Nobody complained because we all knew that our contracts would not be renewed if we did and ''nothing would change.'' (great Turkish phrase)
Students took up to 3 or 4 make up exams but less than 30 and having no torpil would mean they had to do another year of prep. All passed the second year. Savvy parents went directly to the owner to complain. My first year I had the job of taking the minutes during meetings between the managers and a manger from the UK university we were linked with and one of the things he said was:

''You have to have a database. At the moment anyone can change marks and there has to be a system to stop me from giving my grandmother a degree.''

Links were severed after one sacked teacher wrote a letter to the local paper where the UK uni was from and there was a mini scandal. Old timers like dmb may remember.

Academics and teachers don`t need to be bought, the owner does what he likes. At one meeting the owner of the uni said:

''There are no unsuccessful students at my university, only unsuccessful teachers.''

Definition of bought
''to get sth by paying money.'' (Oxford Learners Pocket Dictionary)
Last year a friend of my wife who was in her final year at Kultur Uni said when talking about their teachers (rough translation from Turkish)

''they have to behave towards us softly because we are customers.''

I was so angry that I would have thrown her out if she hadn`t of been a friend of my wife. Needless to say we spoke in Turkish because after 1 year of prep and nearly 4 years of a supposed degree in the medium of English she couldn`t have a basic conversation. Yeah yeah I know the old chestnut that she doesn`t have any practice.

Bosphorous

I disagree that most students there are wealthy. I would say that most are middle class as are most uni students in the UK or America. I have worked with a dozen or so Turkish teachers with BAs in ELTfrom there and have had a number of students with degrees from there and they were all either working class or middle class.

My wife`s younger brother is in the third year at one of the ''top 5'' unis in Turkey and he comes from a working class family. His elder brother who doesn`t have a degree but works in tourism sends him 75 YTL a month and he saves what he can from a summer job at one of the 5 star hotels in Ist (he is studying hotel management) My wife gives him the odd 50 YTL
now and again.

In summary I think that private unis in Turkey with the exception of Koc, Sabanci and Fatih are businesses that accept anybody who can pay the fees and virtually guarantee a degree to those who pay. Those that work there know what is going on with the exception of newbies and accept it for the higher pay and conditions. I would like to claim the moral high ground and say that I left the private uni I worked at because of its unethical behaviour but I left because the money I earned there enabled me to improve my qualifications and I got a better paying job at a better place.

Would you mind being treated by a doctor or dentist who had graduated form a private uni.

[31]

If there weren't private universities, where would students go

They brightest would go to state universities and the rest would either not go or they would go to a dodgy uni in TRNC. So nothing would really change. The rich buy what they want except in this case all they get is a piece of paper which everybody knows is a joke. Again I am not talking a bout Koc, Sabanci or Fatih.

professors at public universities are paid a pittance, which often means that they could give a rip about their jobs.

I think that that is a bit unfair Molly. The few I have met are hardworking professionals who do the best they can on a pitiful salary and in apalling conditions. You can`t blame them if they go and get a job at a private uni so they can support their families.

There are already too many students for the slots in all the universities

True and private unis are exploiting this gap in the market.

, and I guess bottom line is even a poor education is better than none at all.

Sadly the private education business in Turkey is so dog eat dog that I think it is incapable of changing.
From what I hear Sabanci Univ is very similar to Koc in its standards. Some other private univs may be dodgy, but I think these two at least are pretty good.[/quote]
Agreed

[dmb]

I think that alot of us here have had experience of working in a university- in the hazirlik programme. Do you guys remember your first year of university-away from home for the first time. I for one certainly wasn't the nost studious of students in my first year. There were more important things than education. The rugby club, parties, girls, etc. I'd like to hear comments from those who have worked in hazirlik and say taught 3rd or 4th year. Are the students different.? do they take more responsibilty for their learning?

[31]

[dmb]

[calsimsek]

I can't even rember my first year at Uni to much of the drop and weed to leave any impression on me.
I've worked in both public and privet uni's.
Yedi Tepe ( Hz class to Bus Adm )was crap and Marmmara was great ( I thought in an MBA class ).
The fact is that privet uni's are still really very new to Turkey. They need time and support to settle. Yedi Tepe at one time had over 10 different locations in the city. Now it has a great building and there pushing up point grades.
Given time most of the privet Uni's will reach a decent level, yet some will always be about selling paper. Whats wrong with that. If you want to part with your money some will help you.

[molly farquharson]

I have friends who teach in the hazirlik at Koc and their complaints have been the same for the past few years-- they have to whip them into shape before they get admitted to the univ. They deal with a lot of problem behaviour, which has mostly been dealt with before they get to the first year of "real" university. When I was there i was very grateful to them for that!

I found that the students who bypassed the hazirlik because they had gone to Robert Coll, Amerikan Uskudar, etc., were rather arrogant-- until they had their first writing assignment. The ones who came out of the hazirlik program were much more prepared. Some students never did get out of hazirlik and had to leave the university.

I agree with dmb that the first year is a hard one because the students are not used to being adults, and in fact are not quite there. They want to shake it loose, and work hard at that, which makes their academics suffer. I know my undergrad transcripts start off with the only F I got in my life-- rather humbling at the time for a former A student. Made me straighten up in a hurry.

The Koc hazirlik teachers I know are singularly unimpressed by a student's wealth or heritage. Many are new to Turkey and don't know the significance of the family names and are more concerned with the students' behaviour and progress in class. it's much harder for the students to trade on their families with them, which I think is good.

31, I did not mean to say that all profs at public univs are slackers, but I know some are. I also knew quite a few at Koc who took p-t teaching jobs there because they could not afford to be only at wherever else they were. of course they were good teachers because Koc wouldn't have hired them otherwise. I think in general teaching is a profession in which there is a lot of altruism and for that reason around the world teachers are often underpaid. Many many teachers teach because they love it and they want to help students. A noble profession, etc etc, but sometimes it is hard to pay the rent with noble intentions, degil mi?

[31]

[travelingirl68]

[quote="31"]If there weren't private universities, where would students go?

To universities in the former Soviet Union where costs are cheaper: living, purchasing degrees, etc.

[ImanH]

Thanks for your thoughts so far everyone. This is really interesting.
dmb you asked if anyone was teaching students in their third or fourth year - well I am and their behaviour bears very little resemblance to the way in which they sometimes have been talked about on this forum - which is partly why I wanted to raise this topic.
Granted they don't read as much as I would like them to, granted I have a couple of scholarship students and granted I teach only one course and it is an elective course. However, I have also taught at a university in the UK (and a 'good' one, at that) and considering these students are dealing with complex issues in a language which is not their first I think they are doing incredibly well, especially by comparison.
Incidentally, 31, there are 40 post-graduate students in the department too. I'm not sure what percentage are PhD students but there are quite a few.
I agree though that 'wealthy' probably wasn't the right word to describe Bogacizi students, but certainly there are similarities in socio-economic class between many students at state and at private universities. My husband teaches at a state university and he tells me that ALL his students are upper middle-class. He was also very bemused by the idea that degrees could be bought. I'll try to pin him down a bit more on that later, but in the meantime, 31 do you think that your experience at the one university you taught at was representative?
I am not saying that dodgy stuff doesn't go on. I really have not been in Turkey or involved in education in Turkey for long enough to have a clear opinion. I do have a friend who resigned from Koc because she said they were more concerned about money than education - so it seems that even the 'good' private universities have their problems. I just wonder whether not enough credit is given to these students, how similar the situation is to that elsewhere (think about what is happening to further education in the UK for example) and how much snobbery is involved in the assessment of these universities (including by Turkish people who did well enough to get into a state university).
I think too that what we've not really touched on much yet is whether the fact that there are not enough university places to go around has any bearing on the matter?

[31]

[quote="travelingirl68"]

[travelingirl68]

[quote="31"]

[31]

Sorry 31, but I am acquainted with 5 such individuals personally, and know of about 20 others from the university where I worked. Not to mention the ten other universities scattered throughout Kazakstan - and I would guess Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, etc.[/quote]

Sorry I should have explained what I meant. Of course you are right there are Turkish students studying in the former Soviet Union. My wife`s cousin is at medical school in Baku. But it is a relatively small number compared with the thousands who study in North Cyprus, UK etc.
The wealthy students who go to the kind of private unis I was referring to would I am sure not go to the former Soviet Union or to the UK/US. Firstly they already have the opportunity to do so but choose to stay local. If there were no private unis in Turkey I don`t think the former Soviet Union would be first choice. More likely Northern Cyprus.

Out of interest were these Turkish students you are talking about on an exchange, scholarship etc, or were they private fee paying?

As I am writing this I am wondering how we got onto the ridiculous topic of ''if there were no private unis in Turkey.''