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31
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 1797
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 Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ImanH wrote: |
Thanks for that, 31. I think I am beginning to get a better picture of why one might hold such strong views on this - your comment regarding the entrance exam in particular is an enlightening example of how the system might be open to abuse.
The first year I worked at the private uni was its first year and we were all employed from Sept 1. Because of the chaos we didn`t get any students until Nov. So prep teachers natives and Turks alike were given other jobs such as translating and proof reading. We edited the the university charter, rules etc. and it all looks great on paper and on the website. Foundations, pass marks, special student status etc. but the reality is that inbuilt in the system is that the owner is the owner and profit comes first.
When I get a chance I�ll look through and see what some of the other privates say about entrance.
I had a quick look at Yeditepe and basically anyone with the cash can get in.
I am beginning to think though that in fact these universities might exactly be serving their purpose in a way. What I mean here is in terms of the four ways in which knowledge is increasingly being thought about. To quote one author for example: �The knowing-what alludes to the knowledge of facts and is synonymous with information. The knowing-why involves knowledge of explanations of deriving from principles, laws or theories � The knowing-how is a kind of methodological knowledge associated with the competencies and skills for carrying out a task � The knowing-who is an information method relating to the way in which knowledge is distributed in its different forms � and that acquire capital importance in knowledge management processes�. While I would think that - very loosely put - the first two are the most relevant to universities and the third to technical type education, the last seems to me to be a reflection of both how these private universities came into being and why, if your description of the choices made by families is correct, they serve their purpose - if that makes sense 
I am sorry but that went completely over my head. Could you explain that in a much easier way? If you look at the history of private unis in Turkey they came about partly out of being able to exploit laws regarding the encouraging of education. These laws were meant to encourage philanthropists (Inanc Lisesi for example) to invest in education. About 1999 the govt. realising what was happening made it much more difficult for private unis to open but too late for many of the poorly resourced unis. Private unis have/had the right to access to cheap govt land and received taxpayers money.
I think the bit that I am still not entirely certain about is just how many of the students are from these families. Maybe I should do some research on this.
Off the top of my head at the uni I worked at:
20 per cent full or partial scholarship
10 middle class who for whatever reason had failed to get good enough scores and rather than go to Dicle (state) university in the south of Turkey went local.
70 the type we are talking about
Incidentally, you keep mentioning Fatih as one of the better universities and I am curious as to why.
I don`t want to start a debate about Fetullah Gulen but Fatih Uni and the Fatih Colleges were set up with an ideological basis and their aim is educational. Ok we don`t all agree with Gulen but at least he has an ideology. They (colleges) do expel kids and something like 40-50 per cent of the students are scholarship. They are non profit making for real. Yeditepe was set up to make a profit for Bedrettin and his family. I know that if you look at the website or brochures there will be sth like ''non profit making independant foundation but nobody believes that given his track record.
I just asked my wife about Bedrettin for the first time and she said:
''Cok para yedi.''
As I keep saying about places like English Time, you are never going to build a respected institution on the back of a dodgy owner who breaks every rule in the book. I would love to know if the Yeditepe campus is built on ex govt. land. I bet it is.
And yes I too would be very interested to hear whynotme's views. And also anyone else's views, particularly those with anything positive to say.
I know it all sounds so negative but pay and conditions are much better at private unis and I earned relatively good money when I worked for one. We all have our price and if I was offered a good deal I would work for one again.
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ImanH
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 214
Location: Istanbul
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| 31 wrote: |
| I am sorry but that went completely over my head. Could you explain that in a much easier way? |
Yes, sorry I realised as soon as I'd written it I hadn't expressed myself very well at all. I suppose what I am saying is that the type of knowledge that the average working and middle class individual needs to survive and earn a living (as reflected in the first three types of knowledge) is of an entirely different nature than that needed by the wealthy (which is captured best by the final type of knowledge) - and that in fact these universities are both an outcome of that knowledge (the outcome of being a savvy businessperson and recognising how to run this particular business) AND are more important for their role in providing the fourth type of knowledge but not so much in terms of what goes on in the class room but what goes on by dint of attending a particular university ( a sort of version of the old boys network but not quite).
I suspect somehow that I haven't done a much better job of expressing this. I guess what I'm saying is that if you're filthy rich to stay filthy rich you don't need to know how to teach (knowledge one), how to be a physicist (knowledge two) or how to fix a car (knowledge three) but you do need to know who has that knowledge, who controls those who have that knowledge and how to use one's knowledge of both to maximize profit. People don't send their kids to Eaton because they have excellent facilities and teachers ...
It's just a theory though, and probably not a very good one! |
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31
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 1797
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Entrailicus wrote: |
| Where did you work in Azerbaijan, 31? I'm interested. How would you compare it with Turkey, socially and academically? |
It is off topic so a brief reply. Baku and like comparing chalk and cheese. |
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31
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 1797
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Faustino wrote: |
| 31, I may have an opportunity to work there in the near future, so I am genuinely interested. If you would like me to start a new thread, I will. |
Welcome back Faustino. Why not start a new thread so we don`t get into trouble for going off topic. Please bear in mind that I was there when Heydar Aliyev was still alive and my knowledge is a little dated. Also I am as you know pretty cynical and bitter about EFL and so that sometimes clouds my judgement. |
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molly farquharson
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 839
Location: istanbul
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of things here are who you know, even if you're not rich. And many things are not done here the way they are back home, wherever that happens to be.
ImanH I really appreciate your descriptions of the different kinds of knowledge. I hadn't seen it described quite that way before, but it makes a lot of sense. Multiple intelligences except more multiple strategies. |
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ImanH
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 214
Location: Istanbul
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 7:39 am Post subject: |
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I only just came across this way of classifying knowledge recently and I agree Molly, it�s a very useful way of thinking about it - even if I am not too keen on boxes!
I also think that your point regarding who one knows being important, even if one isn�t wealthy, is very true. I suppose it�s just that this type of knowledge may be more significant to one�s livelihood and to have more import the higher up the socio-economic ladder one goes.
To use the jargon, it becomes a more valuable and a more relevant form of social capital. As İ said though it�s just a theory. ((googlebrains, your the philosopher - any thoughts?) But I find it an interesting idea and I am going to try to see if anyone has done any research on this .
I think it�s important in terms of the manner in which a two-tier education system of this kind might have a future social impact.
Can anyone think of any other countries that have a similar education system as Turkey? |
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molly farquharson
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 839
Location: istanbul
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 7:43 am Post subject: |
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The US has private and public universities, but they are more open than here. In the privates there is still a lot of who you know to get admitted. Privates are usually considered to have better quality education, at least the better-known ones.
Not sure about Japan, but I know students have to pass a big test, like they do here. |
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ImanH
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 214
Location: Istanbul
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Molly.
Also I�ve spoken to someone in the know about Yeditepe and this is what they told me.
One cannot buy entrance; one has to attain the university pass level set for Yeditepe, although this might be low.
Within areas such as social sciences there is no buying of passes or changing of grades going on - �impossible� was their response. In the fine arts not sure but possibly as this is a more subjective means of testing.
Where there may be favouritism is in the allocation of bursaries.
The land for the site was bought from an individual.
With regard to money being eaten - yes absolutely in the past. However (and this by no means a justification) he is obsessed with education and much of it has been put into that.
Things that are undoubtedly problematic are the number of students accepted (too many) and the lack of emphasis on research. |
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whynotme
Joined: 07 Nov 2004
Posts: 728
Location: istanbul
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| ImanH wrote: |
Thanks Molly.
One cannot buy entrance; one has to attain the university pass level set for Yeditepe, although this might be low. |
HOW LOW? let me give you the answer... ust write your name and surname + answer 5 questions in Oss exam then you can get a pass to Yeditepe University oh sorry and you need a lot of money...
i agree with what 31 says about Fatih university.I have friends working there in prep school who complain that they have students who mostly couldnt get a place in a state uni but they all make it clear that the aim of the school is not earning money....but again we come to the point that the quality is so low in private unis....i want to divide private unis into 3 catagories
1. aiming to educate students....Sabancı, Koc
2. trying to be good...Fatih, Bilkent ( some departments)
3. profit based unis....Bilgi , Kadir Has
4. crap ones...Yeditepe,Beykent,Bahcesehir,Halic,Kultur
the question is "if you had the chance to choose a university, would you choose Yıldız University or Beyket university (with a scholarship) |
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ImanH
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 214
Location: Istanbul
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:07 am Post subject: |
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whynotme thanks for your input. I guess we know how you feel. 
By the way, that was four categories 
I�m sorry to be so pedantic about this but I am still not clear what precisely the objections are to these universities.
31 your argument was that
| Quote: |
| you are never going to build a respected institution on the back of a dodgy owner who breaks every rule in the book. |
But then surely one should dismiss most if not all privates, including the two highly rated ones, on the basis of the same argument.
whynotme you are saying some unis are crap but again I am not clear on what basis you are making this claim? If it is an issue of entrance exam these are the entrance requirements for 2004
For Yeditepe you need a range of results from 225 to 374 (with bursary) or 341 (without).
Bilgi is 252 to 367 with and 287 without.
Kultur is 243 to 355 with and 285 without.
Bilkent is 211 to 388 with and 330 without.
Fatih is 260 to 372 with and 304 without
Koc is 252 to 371 with 335 without
Sabanci is 305 to 370 with 355 without
This is compared to Bosphorous� range from 340 to 393 or Yildiz� from 281 to 368.
I've tried everywhere to find out how to compare these figures - it's not like saying for example it's the difference between 70% and 30% - but no luck. However, what one can see is that for every one of these highest scholarship students they could have attended Bosphorous university - consequently they must be choosing a private because they cannot afford to go to university without a bursary. So yes the scholarship students are undoubtedly on par. More significantly, though, only Sabanci and Yeditepe (of the privates I looked at) include non-scholarship students who might have gone to Bosphorous - albeit not to study the same subject. |
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31
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 1797
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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31 your argument was that
| Quote: |
| you are never going to build a respected institution on the back of a dodgy owner who breaks every rule in the book. |
That was one of my arguements. Let me contrast 2 private universities that I am familiar with. Firstly the one I worked at that whynotme put in the ''crap'' list. I absolutely agree with whynotme as I am so familiar with it. The owner of this uni is a primary school graduate who made his money in construction and as far as I can gather opened a university in order to profit from the students, directly in the form of fees but also from rental property in the form of private dorms, canteens, and by renting property to local shops, cafes etc. Investment in the uni was minimal with no campus etc. This type of uni has no ideological basis and is a uni in order to make a profit.
Sabanci on the other hand was opened with a mission to educate students using the latest technology. It`s initial investment was over 100 million dollars. The campus was designed by world famous architects. It is non profit making in the real sense of the word. Fair enough sabanci holding don`t need to earn on it. I am not saying that Sakip Sabanci was a saint but it has a mission even if you don`t agree with private education.
I wonder where you got the OSS tables from since to get into the comuter science dept. of Bosphorous you need roughly 550 points.
Whynotme in your list of 4 types of private unis where would you put the following:
Eastern Mediteranean
Izmir Economics Uni
But then surely one should dismiss most if not all privates, including the two highly rated ones, on the basis of the same argument.
whynotme you are saying some unis are crap but again I am not clear on what basis you are making this claim? If it is an issue of entrance exam these are the entrance requirements for 2004
For Yeditepe you need a range of results from 225 to 374 (with bursary) or 341 (without).
Bilgi is 252 to 367 with and 287 without.
Kultur is 243 to 355 with and 285 without.
Bilkent is 211 to 388 with and 330 without.
Fatih is 260 to 372 with and 304 without
Koc is 252 to 371 with 335 without
Sabanci is 305 to 370 with 355 without
This is compared to Bosphorous� range from 340 to 393 or Yildiz� from 281 to 368.
I've tried everywhere to find out how to compare these figures - it's not like saying for example it's the difference between 70% and 30% - but no luck. However, what one can see is that for every one of these highest scholarship students they could have attended Bosphorous university - consequently they must be choosing a private because they cannot afford to go to university without a bursary. So yes the scholarship students are undoubtedly on par. More significantly, though, only Sabanci and Yeditepe (of the privates I looked at) include non-scholarship students who might have gone to Bosphorous - albeit not to study the same subject.[/quote] |
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whynotme
Joined: 07 Nov 2004
Posts: 728
Location: istanbul
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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ImanH,
where did you get these entrance requirements...i found some please check this(it is in Turkish)
http://www.haydi.net/haber_detay.asp?haber_id=468
ohh toooo late gotto go home....ll go on tomorrow |
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ImanH
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 214
Location: Istanbul
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| 31 wrote: |
31 your argument was that
| Quote: |
| you are never going to build a respected institution on the back of a dodgy owner who breaks every rule in the book. |
That was one of my arguements. Let me contrast 2 private universities that I am familiar with. Firstly the one I worked at that whynotme put in the ''crap'' list. I absolutely agree with whynotme as I am so familiar with it. The owner of this uni is a primary school graduate who made his money in construction |
How is the fact that someone is a primary school graduate relevant? If anything I think it demonstrates the apparent irrelevance of a "formal" education. I am really not clear and presume then that, possibly, you are objecting to the fact that:
| Quote: |
as far as I can gather [he] opened a university in order to profit from the students, directly in the form of fees but also from rental property in the form of private dorms, canteens, and by renting property to local shops, cafes etc. Investment in the uni was minimal with no campus etc. This type of uni has no ideological basis and is a uni in order to make a profit.
Sabanci on the other hand was opened with a mission to educate students using the latest technology. It`s initial investment was over 100 million dollars. The campus was designed by world famous architects |
Aside from the fact that is difficult to comment given that I don�t know which the first university is that is under discussion, it just seems like the goalposts keep changing. On the one hand it�s to do with who the owner is and how they acquired their funds, then it�s an issue of the apparent ideology of the university (which is an entirely subjective issue), then it's about what the campus consists of and how it was acquired, then it becomes an issue of what the entrance requirements are, and, most latterly, how one comes about those requirements.
This is why I, for one, continue to be confused about what the basis is for what the objections are to these universities, unless it is merely snobbery and/or speculation regarding the apparent source of funding and/or motivation for these universities and/or etc., etc.
I am really sorry 31 and whynotme, this might appear as flaming, which I don�t in the least intend it to be, but I am genuinely confused and trying to get to grips with this.
For example, if the argument is that �one cannot build a respected�.�, then presumably that applies irrespective of the amount of money that is invested or who it is who is investing it? In which case one is damned if you are (dodgy land dealings) and damned if you are not (it�s owned by a primary school graduate who can�t be bothered to invest in a proper campus) - and so on? I genuinely continue to be confused
Anyway, since the source of the entrance requirements I quoted appears to be under question, this is where I got them http://www.osym.gov.tr/altyapi/dosyagoster.aspx?DIL=1&BELGEANAH=4643&DOSYAISIM=tablo1.pdf
Possibly I have completely misinterpreted these - my Turkish is still in the development stage - but the source, as far as I understand it, is Turkish government data.
As a matter of curiosity, what was yours? |
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31
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 1797
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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How is the fact that someone is a primary school graduate relevant?
I wish I hadn`t written that-it was a cheap shot.
If anything I think it demonstrates the apparent irrelevance of a "formal" education.
I am sorry but I don`t understand your point. You are obviously well qualified. I know that anybody in the uK or I suppose anywhere else if they have the money can open a school, college etc.
I am really not clear and presume then that, possibly, you are objecting to the fact that:
| Quote: |
as far as I can gather [he] opened a university in order to profit from the students, directly in the form of fees but also from rental property in the form of private dorms, canteens, and by renting property to local shops, cafes etc. Investment in the uni was minimal with no campus etc. This type of uni has no ideological basis and is a uni in order to make a profit.
Sabanci on the other hand was opened with a mission to educate students using the latest technology. It`s initial investment was over 100 million dollars. The campus was designed by world famous architects |
Aside from the fact that is difficult to comment given that I don�t know which the first university is that is under discussion,
It was 1 of the ''crap'' ones.
it just seems like the goalposts keep changing. On the one hand it�s to do with who the owner is and how they acquired their funds,
I suppose it boils down to who the owner is and why he opened a univesity. Bedrettin is an infamous embezzeler and so people are of course wary. As for him being obsessed with education I don`t know where you got that information but mean no disrespect but I don`t think it is true. He is in the private uni/school business because it makes money. If there was more money in second hand cars he would be in that instead.
then it�s an issue of the apparent ideology of the university (which is an entirely subjective issue)
I think I was clumsy in what I wrote. All I meant was that some unis were set up with a reason OTHER than to make money. Fatih for example. The ''crap'' ones have no reason for their existence other than to make money.
then it's about what the campus consists of
Again the better private unis tend to have had proper investment and the weaker unis have less investment.
and how it was acquired,
That again was a cheap shot and I wish I hadn`t written it. During the 90s private unis got govt subsidies and access to cheap land so.....
then it becomes an issue of what the entrance requirements are,
There is no getting away from it-the crap unis take anyone.
and, most latterly, how one comes about those requirements.
This is why I, for one, continue to be confused about what the basis is for what the objections are to these universities
They are businesses that take anyone and sell pieces of paper that mean nothing. In the future only go to a doctor or dentist that has graduated from a state university.
, unless it is merely snobbery
No
and/or speculation regarding the apparent source of funding and/or motivation for these universities and/or etc., etc.
No
I am really sorry 31 and whynotme, this might appear as flaming, which I don�t in the least intend to be, but I am genuinely confused and trying to get to grips with this.
I am sure you will feel different after a year there.
For example, if the argument is that �one cannot build a respected�.�, then presumably that applies irrespective of the amount of money that is invested?
The crap unis don`t have the money to invest nor do they need to. They are taking money out not putting it in.
In which case one is damned if you are (dodgy land dealings) and damned if you are not (it�s owned by a primary school graduate who can�t be bothered to invest in a proper campus)
Can`t be bothered-who said tha`t?
- and so on? I genuinely continue to be confused
Anyway, since the source of the entrance requirements I quoted appears to be under question, this is where I got them http://www.osym.gov.tr/altyapi/dosyagoster.aspx?DIL=1&BELGEANAH=4643&DOSYAISIM=tablo1.pdf
Possibly I have completed misinterpreted these - my Turkish is still in the development stage - but the source, as far as I understand, is Turkish government data.
What was your source?[/quote] |
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whynotme
Joined: 07 Nov 2004
Posts: 728
Location: istanbul
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Iman H,
who is the girl on the picture?
i had a quick look at the url you recomended and just wanted to write the entrence enquiries of "management" dept. ( isletme) second scores are with bursary
Bah�esehir: 271-337, beykent:278-329,kultur:268-316,eastern med. 251-285, yeditepe:280-327,doğus:260-325,hali�:259-314 fatih:287-359 koc: 312 and an avarage state uni...lets say Istanbul uni: 317and marmara:322
this shows me easily that state unis choose their students more carefully than the private unis according to OSS criteria (which is not the best criterion but at least it ia one.)
if i had a private uni, i d do the same as Koc or Sabancı did....why start one step behind if your mission is to educate people....whynotme university:322 points not less maybe more...a bussinesman can easily run an oil company or a textile factor...we say bravo to Saros or Mehmet Emin Karamehmet (owner of Turkcell and Yapı Kredi ) but if we are talking about education and health he/she will be critised all the time because people do not want to see a commercialized school or a hospital...
My wife's insurance is enough for American Hospital or Acıbadem but we go to Privte Osmanoglu Hospital because we dont find it too commercialized ..at least they are not asking us to do 5 unnecessary tests for a simple flu...or lots of EFL teachers here are complaining about Kolejs and some private language schools....The staff working there do not believe that they are aiming to educate students how can i or the students going there believe this....
i might be exaggerating it a bit or you can say it is the same in every country but i was schoked when i taught 10 days in one of the private unis...after taking one of the students mobile phone he asked me whether i love my working there which means threating me...and i couldnt see a light of progress in their manner ...most of them didnt even a have a favorite colour...it is not just my opinion because i have friends working for them and they say the same
31,
i have no idea about Izmir Economy uni.... Dogus and Eastern Mediteranean are in the crap catagory....
btw when i was at uni, there was no private university except the ones in Cyprus and students who couldnt have the chance to go to a uni were studying harder for the next year... |
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