Job Discussion Forums

jeffinflorida · Last edited by jeffinflorida on Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:12 am; edited 1 time in total

Ok, I came to China on a 30 day L visa that I got in Hong Kong. I started work at a PUBLIC School on that L visa 4 days after entering China. I have gotten paid from this school.

Today, after working here for 36 +/- days - even after my visa expired I obtained a Z visa.

For those of you who say in these forums that you can not obtain a Z visa in China - you are wrong. For those who say you can not work here for a public school on an F or L visa you are wrong. For those who say you cannot get an F or L visa changed to a Z visa you are wrong.

Do I have a "friend" or 'party member" who did this for me. NO. The school did it for me and for others.

So, you CAN get you visa status changed easily and legally in China to a Z visa without any hassle. I didn't even have to do anything, the school went to Fuzhou and took care of it all.

Done, Issue closed right?

By the way, with the exception of changing money do the Foreign Experts Certificate (which is a reddish brown by the way) and the Foreigner Residence Permit (dark green by the way) have any purpose or need to be carried?

smalldog · Joined: 04 Feb 2004 Posts: 74

Different provinces handle this kind of thing differently. If you were in the same situation in Beijing you would end up paying a fine and taking a trip to Hong Kong.

It is true that what you have done can be done without hassle, but we should be careful not to mislead people into thinking it can always be done.

monju · Joined: 30 Oct 2004 Posts: 89 Location: Wutaishan, China

Congratulations Jeff.

knew you could do it.

I think that all the sticks in the mud who said you can't do what you've just done were relying on what Chinese (ahem) "law" says. However Chinese law at it's best is ... um ... well ... flexible.

At the risk of sounding like/being a w@nker, I would guess that the people at the school fall into either the category of "friend" or "party member"or, perhaps, both.

Anyway, everybody here knows that just about anything is possible in the PRC.

I'm glad you did it man!

anthyp · Joined: 16 Apr 2004 Posts: 1320 Location: Chicago, IL USA

Wow, I bet you couldn't wait to fire this gem off.

But it is hardly the be - all end - all of the matter, and I agree with the poster who said you should not be bandying this about as such. One man's personal experience in China is often not applicable to others, and I would not be so quick to flout how I successfully managed to contravene Chinese law.

That is the only "fact" to this, after all -- that it may be possible to do things here a certain way, which is not in exact accordance with the law. And the only "truth" to this is that which I can see in your profile, i.e., that you need a life.

The Foreign Expert's Certificate is your work permit, by the way; and the Temporary Residence Permit affords you the right to live here (these matters are not all left up in the air as you would have us believe).

Spiderman Too · Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:01 pm Post subject:

I once knew a fellow from the US state of Iowa. He robbed a bank of $1,000,000. The police never arrested him. He never went to jail. He bought a new house and a new car, and started his own computer business. Currently, he lives an affluent and contented life.

So, for those of you who say you cannot rob banks, you are wrong! For those of you who say police will arrest you if you rob a bank, you are wrong! For those of you who say you will go to jail if you rob a bank, you are wrong!

And, of course, this applies to all 50 states of America.

As for Jeff�s post;

Does Jeff�s school have �guanxi� with the local authorities? Maybe!

Did Jeff�s school pay �tea money� to have foreign teachers� �L� visas converted to �Z� visas? Perhaps!

Will the school you choose to work for be able to convert your �L� visa to a �Z� visa? Who knows?

Is the ability to convert �L� visas to �Z� visas available in all 666 Chinese cities? Most definitely not!

jeffinflorida · Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:05 pm Post subject:

Do I need to change my identity or go into The Witness Protection Program now?

kev7161 · Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Posts: 5880 Location: Suzhou, China

I'm not sure what the brouhaha is all about (I love that word: "brouhaha"). I too came to China on an "L" visa in the summer of 2002. The Chinese embassy in Chicago issued it to me when I sent them a letter of acceptance from a summer English camp job. I actually didn't go to Chicago myself as it was a fair distance away. Travisa Visa Service took care of it for me. There was absolutely no problems and I had my passport with said visa returned to me in less than 2 week's time. China KNEW I was coming here to work on an "L" visa (well, work for a month, that is) and they didn't seem to care.

Then, my permanent job (where I am still employed to this day), took my "L" visa to the nearby PSB and had it changed to a "Z" visa. The "Z" visa actually was issued on 08/27/2003 and expired 08/28/2003. I didn't even know at the time that I could have requested to have it as a reentry visa for, say, a year. However, I did get my green book that allowed me to live here legally for the next year (and then subsequently had THAT renewed by my school for the following, current, year). Now, the green book is gone and I have that fancy, new, reentry visa/residence permit thingie. I got that done all by my lonesome with very little problem (surprisingly).

I may have negative things to say about my school, but they did take care of everything, neat as a pin and I had no worries. Heck, I didn't even know I SHOULD worry. The school even paid for all the fees. Some fellow FTs have had some tricky things happen to them with their visas and residence permits, but right now I think everyone working here is legal and legit.

So, why are some of you fussing over this issue?

latefordinner · Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Posts: 973

JeffinF, I'm glad things have worked out for you. Now please just tell us who said it couldn't be done, and who said to be careful what is done, when and how.
My own experience has left me deeply suspicious. I wish you a better experience

Norman Bethune · Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 731

Jeff....

What we know can be done in China is one thing. Knowing for certain that it will always happen, is another thing.

In every forum for every country represented on this website, there exist two different breeds of advisors.

The first group is by the book. They tell people interested in working in a country the legal route to take. However, they also know that what the letter of the law says, and the reality are two different things. Usually advice dispensed by this group is meant to keep a newbie from getting a nasty surprise once in the country. Deportation is never pleasant.

The second group consists of the fly by the seat of your pants advice givers. They tell people what they got away with, without any regard for what disastrous consequences it may have for someone who takes the advice and is not so fortunate. Afterall, they are not the person who will be deported.

Now, if the visa had not come through, and you were forced to run to Hong Kong you would probably have written a different post today.

I was with a friend when he said to his father (after the lad was arrested for possession of a small amount of hashish); "But Dad, everyone I know smokes it and they don't get in trouble".

His father looked at me and asked if I smoked the stuff too. I didn't say anything. The Dad was no fool. He then said: "The difference between you and your friends is that they aren't dumb mo****f******s like you. They don't get caught. You can do anything you want as long as you never get caught."

Consider the story a little Baijiou for the Soul.

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

Even if Jeff should not crow about this, they may be lessons to be learned...there are indications that the "letter of the Law" as foreigners understand it..is just that ..as foreigners understand it...
Advice on this forem usually serves the poster..and it is in the best interest of some posters to serve their own statue. Advice given from this experience should not be consiered a standard but rather a possibility..an even if the nay sayers have to warn Jeff of his over enthusiasm... he did it...then it is possible as anything is in China...
Jeff on a side note..part of the advice given on these forems is that a "z" offers protection ...don't bet on it..you may have more in store for you..even if it feels like it is a successful coup...the "z" I mean...keep you eyes open...

Will_MN · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:18 am Post subject: Wow

Hey...my � cents worth�.
The law is the law but in China it is not always followed or is loosely followed.
It really should be your responsibility to tell the school you will not work unless you have a Z visa I posted the law in another post about entry and working requirements of foreigners.
It is absolutely true in all provinces in China you CANNOT work even one day on an L, F , C or G visa and you cannot work on an X visa UNLESS the school applies for your residence permit and applies for an Employment Permit from the Labor Ministry.

Article 8: Foreigners seeking employment in China shall hold the Employment Visas for the entry (In case of agreement for mutual exemption of visas, the agreement shall prevail.), and may work within Chinese territory only after they obtain the Employment Permit for Foreigner （hereinafter referred to as the �Employment Permit"） and the foreigner residence certificate. Foreigners who have not been issued residence certificate (i.e. holders of F，L，C or G-types visas), and those who are under study or intern programs in China and the families of holders of Employment Visas shall not work in China．

Can you get a Z visa in China? Absolutely, it is completely legal for the school to apply for a Z visa. However, the school must have the proper license to employ you and the Province must allow for the �special case� of a Foreigner who is in China already or who changes there location.
Each Province can have their own version of visa rules and regulations. And chances are they don�t even know what there own rules are. Your best bet is to follow the People�s Law and if they have a variation, have them give it to you in writing. Once you get it in writing then believe them. If they refuse to give it to you, chances are there isn�t a �law� it is just they don�t want to give you the visa or law document because the school doesn�t have the �connections� established.
If you do have a Z visa it still may not be legal, if they do not have your Employment Permit filed at the Labor Department. And also remember a Z visa is only good for the school that gave it to you. Some will get it from an Agent and that is not legal, or another school or a �friend�, becareful.
A warning if you work ONE DAY on an illegal visa, your rights to sue or enforce your contract may be gone. They all promise it is completely legal but once you work that one day you have just grabbed your ankles and begged them to f@#$ you! Now you are just waiting for them to choose to play their card, or if they like you a lot you may be fine. If they are short on money or the last day they just want to refuse your airfare or your last month�s salary. You just gave it to them.

Volodiya · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:12 am Post subject:

At least from January 1, 2005, some additional instructions have apparently been given to the PSB that, in many provinces, have caused them to start refusing to convert other visas to Z visas, in country, whereas before they did. (The change could have resulted from something as simple as the provinces being reminded that they are to convert visas to Z visas only in special cases, not as a routine matter, as some seemed to be doing before.)

Under these new instructions some people have been required to leave China in order to receive a Z visa; then, re-enter to work. If you were not required to leave, jeffinflorida, you were fortunate- or you may be in one of those provinces which is continuing, to some degree, the former practice.

At this time, all that can be prudently said is that a number of provinces (including mine) are refusing to convert other visas to Z visas, in country, and they tell all who ask that this change has been in effect since the first of the year.

Will_MN · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:17 am Post subject: Where is the law :)

That is true! I have heard many times that a new law did go into effect. I have asked many times to see it, but it is not "available" yet? If anyone can get it in writing post it or PM me with it. I have heard that most provinces aren't affected, but what I have heard is they are taking away the corruption links and it makes it more difficult for them to get illegal visas so the schools are forced to follow the law step by step.

jeffinflorida · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:54 am Post subject:

Let's understand, I am not gloating or bragging. The point of the post is simply to say that the school told me to come here on a tourist visa and they would procure me a Z visa. I did, they did, all is fine.

I have been reading this forum and posting for several months before I came. I have seen many posts from people who have had experience doing what i was planning to do : come and live and teach in China.

There are numerious discussions on what the law is etc, etc.

I understand the law. hell in Florida - where I am from - if anyone hadn't figured it out yet - the official speed limit is 70 mph on the turnpike and I-95, I-75 and I-4. Will you get pulled over at 79 most likely not. At 81 probably. Maybe I was lucky and I was crusing at 79 mph and nobody cared. Maybe, my school is very connected and my "blind faith" in their ability paid off.

So, I wanted to post my experience, not the law, and not "How It Works In China" because I know another FT in another part of the country may be fined or put on a plane back to where-ever in the same situation.

So, LIKE THE SPINNING HOMER?

Volodiya · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:27 am Post subject:

Relax, jeffinflorida, we're all happy for you. You followed your school's advice and it worked out well!

Your good experience naturally emboldened you, at first, to conclude the problems had been exaggerated. (I did the same thing with a post before I realized that others' experiences were not following the pattern I was familiar with, "L" to "Z", in country. I, too, was mildly chastened by other posters for overgeneralizing.)

It's just that, as it's clear you understand now, it's risky to encourage others to rely on one person's experience as a guide. A lot of people have invested time and effort to stay abreast of developments here on the Z visa question, and have exercised restraint not to jump to conclusions without more evidence- and it's still coming in, as your case is now added to the accumulated information.

[I don't know what significance to attach to the fact that they used the "old" system when they issued your Z visa. The old system used the three documents you described- a sticker in your passport, a "brown book", and a "green book". The new system consists of a residence sticker in the passport (which also acts as a multiple entry visa) plus the brown FEC document.]