Job Discussion Forums

[englishteacher53]

Hi All. I'm getting quite concerned about my future teaching - here or anywhere as I have no degree and only a TESOL certificate and i'm reading that China,along with other countries is insisting on all teachers having a degee as well as teaching experience and a certificate. Does anyone know exactly what the rules are as i'm to old to get a good job back in the UK and too young to draw a pension and I would really like to stay teaching in China. Cheers to all and waiting patiently

[ivytony]

as far as I know, Z visa is not issued to people withou NO degree.

I am just curious how you teach without a sheepskin.

[cj750]

many folks with a BS or no degree currently hold z's. It is the contention of many that the school must create a fake degree to do this...however the interpretation of the law is provicial and Beijing has yet to rope in the offending provences...if they ever will....and not only that but many here already on the z have no degree and continued to be resertified each year on the basis of already having a z.
Also this z requirement thing came and went a few year ago...I just noticed an ad on Daves stating you must have a BS or better...

[englishteacher53]

Hi, I have been issued a Z visa in 2002,3 and 4 without any question regarding said degree(or lack of!) but have read and been told that as of Jan1 holding a degree is minimum!

Without offending anyone - just because somebody has a degree dosen't make them a good teacher - I know that it shows accademic skills and not nessasarily abillity. Sure we need to stamp out the "Backpacker Teachers" who come to Asia without the required docos but there will be a lot of very good,competent teachers lost this way!

By the way ivytony - how do you teach with a sheepskin? I use a pen, workbook and put on my glasses!!

I just need clarification as I dont want to apply for jobs if they insist on something I don't have! Some of the adverts are asking for supermen but offering really c**p money for them so surely if they want the best then they will have to up the anti and most schools cannot do that.

seems like a catch 22 to me! any comments welcome!

TTFN

[rickinbeijing]

As a holder of a legitimate Z Visa and degrees/certification, I look forward to the distant day when both are mandatory in China along with a complementary rise in salaries for foreign experts. It galls me to no end that I must work for the same (low) pay as someone who has minimal training and teaching experience. A previous poster is partly right: having a degree does not necessarily a good teacher make; neither does having a TEFL certificate, especially if it's not from a real degree program. A teaching degree in English as a first or second language does ordinarily signify something more substantive. It's common knowledge among Chinese college students that the majority of those who teach them are at best under-qualified. That also bugs me because I have to overcome a collective reputation that proceeded me. No, I'm not playing a small violin for myself but let's face it: until there is some standardized hiring practice the likelihood of salaries becoming as competitive as they were 15 years ago is highly unlikely.

[Talkdoc]

[rickinbeijing]

TalkDoc,

Yeah, what you say is generally true. Word gets out. The Chinese grapevine is notorious for its "efficiency." Come to think of it, American college students tend to get the word out too. I was so annoyed when I wrote that observation that I spelled "preceed" as "proceed." Oh, well, a hundred lashes of the whip, metaphorically speaking of course.

While I'm posting here again, I'd like to add that it also galls me when SOME college students here put more stock in someone with a Ph.D in English rather than a Ph.D in English/EFL Education. Evidently, that stigma is universal.

Rick
_______

I'd give you the answer if I had one.

[Talkdoc]

[englishgibson]

English Teacher, Talkdoc and Rick nicely said! Your inputs are probably the best I have read in past few weeks. China is one of those countries, where you will never find any consistencies whatsoever. The education and hiring foreign academics is and will probably never be an exception. Oh, I have heard this one; �Never say never!� Should I believe that? I have knowledge of foreign teachers (with Z Visas) with no High School accomplished (home), in a couple of cases not even their �lower education� accomplished respectfully. I guess it depends on what part of China (city) you teach in as well as what school. However it also scares me how some Chinese schools/centers match their needs to the ESL teachers� educational and professional back rounds. Some backpackers have for sure damaged ESL teachers� reputation in China and that is why the easygoing Chinese government is trying to crack down on the �undereducated ones�. I just hope that with all those requirements for higher education that has been inforced in some areas of China will result in a better working environment/conditions (in some schools).
Cheers
__________________________________________________________
Will you let 100 drivers pass the red light to catch the 101st one?
Will you let the ducks preach the dogs how to bark? (Sorry for that one!)

[Orrin]

At the school where I was teaching in Zhuhai it was common practice to make �doctored� copies of legitimate diplomas and TESL/TEFL certificates in order to procure Z visas for some teachers who did not hold the required credentials. I understand that this is a common practice with schools and some universities throughout China.

[mlomker]

I was just reading an article in the January issue of Reason magazine. It was discussing the prevalence of unaccredited, mail-order degrees among government officials. A search of government resumes using just three so-called school's records had uncovered 500 fake degree holders. Fully half of them were with the US Department of Defense.

The point that I'm making is that the USA hasn't even thoroughly cracked down on diploma mill degree holders--the odds of China setting higher standards in the near future seems unlikely to me. Anybody that wants to work as an FT in China could certainly order one of these US "degrees" off of the Internet for a couple hundred bucks. Some of the diploma mills will even answer the phone to 'validate' your degree for potential employers.

What bothers me is countries like Taiwan that have responded to the problem by invalidating all distance degrees. I spent a considerable sum attending the University of Phoenix online and ultimately graduated from Excelsior College (both schools are well known in distance education and regionally accredited) and I might want to work in Taiwan some day. I'm currently working on a campus-based Masters but I don't know if that'll be good enough or not.

[Indiana Jones]

I spoke to the Chinese Consulate in Melbourne about the degree issue and was told that it is preferred that you have a degree, but most employers and immigration will accept you if you have post-secondary education. If you apply, and get the job, you will get a visa and it is perfectly legal. TESOL/TEFL qualifications are also preferred, but not necessary.

If you're 31 years of age and over, you can get a Z Visa and teach conversational english -- there's an ENORMOUS difference between teaching a specific subject, as you would in any school in your home country, and teaching conversational english.

I am sick to bloody death of the degree-holders lording it over the rest of us. I have a Diploma of Arts: Professional Writing & Editing -- yes, I studied the english language for several years. I have teaching experience, and I have TESOL qualifications. I also have references from two teachers, one of whom has been teaching for almost forty years. I'm sincere, capable, and passionate about living and working in China. I am FULLY QUALIFIED to teach conversational english, and employers will recognise this and waive the degree requirement to employ me and you degree-lords have no bloody right whatsoever to protest my employment as an english conversation teacher.

I suspect it's more a case of jealousy. Many who have been teaching english in China and experienced little or no competition for the good jobs in the past suddenly face the prospect of fierce competition. Welcome to the real world.

China wants 100'000 english conversation teachers each year up until the 2008 Olympics. That's one teacher per 10'000 Chinese. They can't afford to be picky and go for the status-symbol of degrees.

Many employers also recognise the fact that a degree doesn't necessarily make a good teacher. Japan has recognised this, and introduced the Instructor Visa last September -- if you're over 31 and have the minimum post-secondary education, you CAN apply for conversational english teaching jobs and get a working visa. If a place of employment offers you a job, with or without a degree you can accept that job and get a working visa. Another example is Geos For Kids in Japan -- one or two year diplomas are accepted if you're 31 or over, despite the degree requirement.

My advice to the degree-less -- apply for jobs, and if you get an offer, take it and make the most of the opportunity. It's not the Chinese Government demanding degrees, it's a minority of teachers who want to monopolise the job market.

P.S. I understand that there needs to be a system that weeds out the undesirables, those who are insincere about teaching or don't have the aptitude for it. Students are paying good money to be taught conversational english, so they have a right, as do the employers, to demand the best. I just think that this can swing in the wrong direction, and unfairly invalidates many potential teachers who'd be brilliant at the job and who have so much to offer. It'd be a shame if the degree requirement was rigidly enforced -- a lot of good teachers would lose their jobs, and it won't necessarily put an end to bad teachers.

P.P.S. I'm not angry, just annoyed that I'm judged as incapable of teaching conversational english because I don't hold a degree, and that I have no right to teach in China. No more, no less.

[Roger]

[Roger]

[Indiana Jones]

The 100'000-teachers-per-year claim was an official quote in a press release. I'm not taking it at face value. I doubt they're serious about attaining the exact number, but no one can deny the gold-rush for english teaching jobs in China -- the demand is high. It's like Japan in the 1980s. So I say take advantage of it while we still can, it won't last forever.

As for oral english teachers not being taken seriously -- then what's the big deal about them requiring a degree? If it's a Mickey Mouse job, why all the fuss about non-degree teachers? This is what bemuses me -- there's a raging argument about whether oral english teachers should have Masters Degrees or not, when in reality very few students and employers take an oral english teacher seriously in China anyway. Edutainers, that's what is required. Which makes me think it's a status thing -- a degree on the office wall looks more impressive than a poster of [insert favourite celebrity or landscape scene here].

I don't mind being in the twilight and being regarded as the lowliest of the lowest foreign devils. I know the pay will be basic and the majority of my students won't care less about what I teach and how I teach it. I'm not naive, I know the realities. I'm going for the experience moreso than the job itself. It's a stepping stone to other opportunities.

As for fake degrees -- I refuse to get one. And if my employer decides I need to print out a fake degree, I'll probably refuse, even if it means losing my job. To accept a fake degree encourages the problem, and makes it worse for genuine teachers. I already have perfectly good qualifications that I earned honestly.

Of course, I'll probably go to China and find myself in the worst position, living out of a gutter and thinking, "if only I had a degree" ...

Let the debate rage on ....

P.S. I'm not even annoyed anymore, I'm wondering what got me all fired up like a Sichuan stirfry. It doesn't really matter what the opinions are, I'll be applying for jobs anyway. Wish me luck!