Job Discussion Forums

[matttheboy]

I watched �Maria, llena eres de gracia� the other night (pretty good by the way, I�d definitely recommend it) and was surprised by the Spanish that was used by the characters. Not the Colombian slang (which I obviously didn�t understand-and the DVD had no English subtitles for some reason) but the fact that everyone, friends, families, boyfriends, bosses, was referred to in the formal �usted�.

I�ve come across this once before when I saw a play in Chile and thought it was done for �dramatic effect�.

Here in Argentina , �usted� is only used in really formal situations or when talking to someone by far your elder. It�s similar in Chile, although a tiny bit more formal and also Ecuador (even more formal but still, most people �tutear�).

The other thing I noticed was the Colombian accent-the film�s set in a poor rural town so the accent may have been stronger than usual-but it reminded me of a Brazilian speaking Spanish. Weird.

I�ve learned my Spanish in 3 very different places. I started off in Ecuador not knowing anything in September 2003. Ecuadorian Spanish is really, really clear and clean (except around Guayaquil but the less said about that place the better), a very pure form of Spanish but obviously with a local slang. After a little more than 3 months I could speak a bit, make myself understood and understand the gist of what was said back to me as long as people spoke slowly so I decided to start travelling.

I flew to Argentina. Hmmm�to be greeted at my hostel with �De donde sos?� �Sos�???? Eh??? I knew Argentine Spanish was different and had a read a bit about the accent and the language before leaving Ecuador but I was lost for a few days before I started to get used to the new language. I started to pick up an Argentine accent pretty quickly. Whilst in Buenos Aires I met a couple of girls from Mendoza (far west of the country near the Chilean border). Different accent again-still Italian intonation and swing and �vos� instead �tu� but a few �s�s went missing. When I visited Mendoza I was already speaking a mix of �normal� Ecuadorian Spanish with a hint of �Castellano� (what Argentines always call their form of Spanish) and I hooked up with my new friends. A week in their company and I was starting to drop my s� from a few set phrases. Most notably �E� lo mi�mo, ma� o meno��! All said with an English/Ecuadorian/Argentine accent!!

Next stop: Chile. I met up with a former student of mine from when I was working in England. She was quite surprised that I could actually say anything in Spanish as the last time she had seen me I could say �Esta para alli� (!)and nothing more. Not good. She was even more surprised to hear my weird �acento mezclado�. Well I was supposed to be in Santiago for 2 days but my former student rapidly became my actual girlfriend�Chilean Spanish was now being thrown into the mix. Forget your �s�s, make up words as you go along and speak at machine-gun speed and you�re fluent in Chilean Spanish. My �E� lo mi�mo, ma� o meno�� simply went unremarked upon in Chile. 'Es' became "E� " very quickly in pretty much all my speech. It was when I returned, periodically, to Buenos Aires over the next few months that I noticed I was starting to speak Chilean. Bollocks. �Ya� had started to punctuate my speech (�Ya� in Chilean Spanish is used instead of 'Si' a lot of the time). A waitress in Buenos Aires asked me �Queres tu postre ahora?� To which I replied �Si, al tiro por favor�. The poor girl had no idea what I�d said. I had no idea what I�d said wrong. Me �dio lata, po!!�

A year later, living in Buenos Aires permanently but returning every 3 weeks or so to Santiago, I�m still in linguistic limbo. I�ll regularly start conversations with my girlfriend in Castellano before slipping back into Chilean and then simply mixing it all together. I often say things like, �Y vos? Que quieres hacer?� instead of �Y vos? Que queres hacer?� or �Y tu? Que quieres hacer?�

I�m trying to start speaking just the one form (Castellano) so I don�t get confused but it�s pretty difficult. Just last week my girlfriend was here for her holidays and we went to an Argentine-Chilean friend�s wedding. Many of my/my girlfriend�s friends were here from Chile and we all went out. I asked, �Quieren ir a un boliche mas tarde?� �Que dijo el?� was the response amongst my friends��You want to go bowling???? Now???' Arrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

I also throw in the odd Ecuadorian expression as well�I�m still subjecting myself to too many �chuchaquis� for example (I'm getting too old for booze i think). It took me a long time to stop saying 'No tengo sueldo' and start saying of �No tengo cambio� (a very, very important expression in Latin America).

I don�t think I�ve learned Spanish in the best way!! Has anyone else had this problem???

What�s the Spanish like in your country? Have you picked up local slang and not actually realised it was local slang and then used it in another country to be met with a blank look (or a look that says �here�s a tourist who can�t speak Spanish��. And the example of �coger �is not allowed. Most people who learned Spanish in Europe have done that�

How is �usted' used in your countries? What�s your favourite local expression and what does it mean? I like the simple ones-here in Argentina the greeting between male friends of �Che! Boludo!� Which translates (ish) as �Mate! Di ckhead!� but actually means-ish (between friends remember) �Hey, how�s it going?� In Chile, i add 'Po' to the end of every sentence just to annoy my girlfriend

Chau boludos!!

[moonraven]

It's "no tengo suelTo", not "no tengo sueldo". That's why they didn't understand you. Sueldo is salary and suelto is loose (change). You can also say "no tengo fierro", which means the same thing in northern Mexico.

Your search for "castellano" in Latin America will not be a fruitful one. You need to go someplace like Madrid, Spain.

Colombia has very strong regional accents--probably related to the fact that getting from one place to another there isn't that easy. In the films of Victor Gaviria (Rodrigo D no futoro, the first Colombian film to compete at the Cannes festival; La vendedora de rosas--and he has a new one that's just being released), as he uses street kids instead of professional actors parts of the films are shown with SPANISH subtitles, although I did not find the street argot difficult to understand.

As for the practice of "usted" and "t�"--if you will remember, I was highly offended when you used the familiar form with me....It's also ridiculous to use it with people you don't know.

[matttheboy]

[moonraven]

Disrespectful twit.

[Weona]

I find that the environment has a lot to do with whether one addresses you in the 'tu' or 'usted' forms. For example, at my school... my students always refer to me in the 'usted' (the age ranges from 12-17). At first I found this rather strange, and even more strange when I heard the other teachers address the students with 'usted'! What? Just to be clear, I try and enforce the "no Spanish in the classroom" rule but it doesn't always happen. It's tough when you have a classroom full of 45 kiddies runnning arond...

So then after spending a few hours with some students outside of the school environment (we went to get lunch and I helped them with some school stuff), they would always address me with 'tu' and speak very unformally with Chilean slang to boot (Matt, you should know what I'm talking about here.... "oye, y tu sabi que..." or "pucha, no cacho lo que me deci po!! porque no hablai mas lentito?" ya la wea.....).

The next day having seen them at school they were back to the 'usted'! I found this fascinating but sometimes weird. Anyway, I always prefer hearing somebody address me in the 'tu' form, mainly because 'usted' makes me feel old and also because I'm also more comfortable the less formal the situation. In fact, there have been times where 'usted' has offended me but that was primarily when I first started teaching and didn't realize that 'usted' is used with the purpose of respect and not so much just used with "older" people (at the time, I was only a few years older than my high school students).

Chile does tend to be on the more formal side of things but I also feel that the environment in which the exchange is taking place really has a lot to do with it.

As far as my Spanish instruction goes... I learned a lot in the U.S. and most of my instructors were either from Mexico or Spain. Then I came down to Chile in 2003 and learned the bulk of my Spanish here. People say I have a Chilean accent for sure but I'm not so sure I pride myself on that....

[Justin Trullinger]

In Spain, "tu" is used in almost all cases, except for when dealing with extreme differences in age or status. And yes, it is generally used with "desconocidos" as well.

A habit in Ecuador I find hard to get used to is mixing the two forms.

"Buenos d�as, �como esta? �Que haces por ac�? Me alegro de verle..."

And so it continues.

In Spain, the habit of referring to Spanish as "castellano" is understandable- as Spain is a rather large country, and host to several native languages as well as the language of Castilla. (Notably Catalan, Basque, and Gallego) I have never understood why Argentinians have adopted this, but they seem very set on it.

Justin

[matttheboy]

Yeah, informal Chilean is something i'm only just really getting a handle on, i'd never say 'como estai?' or 'queri' myself but i'm beginning to understand the rythm of Chilean now. Still don't particularly like it i have to say but at least i understand it now except when there's a group all talking with and across each other and i just get lost. This happens to me with 'normal' Spanish as well i'll readily admit, but to a much lesser extent...

I also don't like people using 'usted' when talking to me, i feel a bit uncomfortable to be honest, like i'm being treated as someone more important than i am. Silly as i know this isn't the case but, still...

My biggest problem is the fact that i live in Argentina and have a Chilean girlfriend-the Spanish spoken in these 2 countries is at totally opposite ends of the spectrum. I mean had i gone from Ecuador to Chile it wouldn't have been so much of a problem-all the Chileans i know made an effort to speak 'cleanly' with me when i first arrived there-Chilean Spanish is basically the same as Ecudorian Spanish if you take out the informal slang and speak clearly which most people are able and happy to do if necessary. Argentines can't really do that as the accent, intonation and pronuciation of words are so different along with the conjugation of the verbs. They're taught the 'proper' conjugation at school but always write the Argentine conjugation.

Argentines call their form of Spanish 'castellano' because it marks them out as superior-it ties them closer to Europe and superiority if they say they speak 'Castillian' as opposed to the generic 'Spanish'. This despite the fact that a popular phrase here is 'todos los gallegos son una mierda'.

There are tons of jokes about Argentines that take the pis s out of this, attesting to their feelings of superiority, like:

'How does an Argentine commit suicide?

- He jumps off his ego' or:

"A girl goes up to a man and asks for a lighter. The man checks his pockets and takes forever patting himself all over. After a while the girl asks again-'So, do you have a lighter?' -'No', he replies, 'but my god i've got a good body'.

Or:

"-What's the best business deal in the world?
-Buy an Argentine at what he's worth then sell him at what he says he's worth."

I'm sure you've heard a few wherever you are!
Google 'chistes de argentinos' and you'll find 100s more

[nomadamericana]

I learned Spanish in Argentina (for the most part). So, I spoke with the accent, conjugated the verbs their way, had their slang and then I moved back to the US to go to University. In the university most my professors were either Puerto Ricans or Spainards and they didn�t mind the Argentine accect� but I had a Colombian professor once that hated it and would not accept any papers unless they used Colombian mannerisms�. Which I didn�t know.
Along the way I have learned Portuguese so I my Castellano and Portuguese gets mixed up in my head sometimes. I also spent some time in Southern Spain and the way they pronounce �has comido� like �has comao� has stuck with me. And now I have several Puerto Rican, Dominican and Cuban friends� So, I�m picking up their Spanish colloquialisms. So, my Spanish is still very Argentine but I have to tone it down occasionally so my Caribbean friends don�t think I am loca.
So, yeah� I hear you Mattheboy� My Spanish is mixed up quite a bit� but the caribe Spanish and Argentine Castellano isn�t that far off. They people I have difficulty understanding is Mexicans that I tutor and they think it is funny when they break out in slang and I have no idea what is going on.

[eli.]

great topic!

My story (in brief): I started learning castillano (don't let them hear you call it espa�ol) in Buenos Aires, then actually studied some in Barcelona (NOT the place to learn Castilian Spanish, I suppose, but what a city....), & live in NYC amongst Domincans, Puerto Ricans, & Cubans....

I still pronounce "ll" & "y" as "jzh", I sometimes pronounce "ci" & "ce" as "th", and I drop 1/2 my "s"s..... what a mess.

My plan is to head to Costa Rica to teach & work on my Spanish fluency, but I have no idea what accent I'll have in a year....

[Weona]

In Chile, they also refer to Spanish as "castellano". So much so that in school they have "clases de castellano".. I never hear the word "espa�ol".

I heard that in Colombia and Ecuador the Spanish is supposed to be the most beautiful and well-spoken. I've never been up that far but I've met a few Colombians here in Chile and it does sound remarkably clear and song-like. I love it.

[matttheboy]

[moonraven]

Apparently a lot of other Spanish speakers do not understand what they hear in Mexican films. I was in the national cinema in Caracas, Venezuela, watching a Mexican film I had wanted to see but had missed when it was showing in Mexico City--part of a Latin American film festival. All around me people kept asking each other, �Qu� significa eso?"

Most of what they didn't understand involved the peculiarly Mexican use of the verb "chingar"--and its noun forms. I think Mexicans use a lot of "modismos" compared to the rest of Latin America--although some of them are becoming more accessible due to the popularity of Mexican soap operas and movies, there's usually no one around to explain meanings while they're watching.

In Caracas I wasn't going to give a run-down in the middle of the film--nor refer them to Octavio Paz' "El laberinto de la soledad" for background on "la chingada"....

[Ben Round de Bloc]

If anyone wants to check out Spanish modismos of various Latin American countries and/or Spain, here's a web site that you might find interesting. Scroll down the page to the "Countries" section, and click on the one(s) you want to view.

http://www.jergasdehablahispana.org/

[Aramas]

I heard an "Argie" joke from a Brazilian. It's rather distasteful, but quite tame for Brazilians, who seem to know no bounds.

A girl runs into a house, crying.
"Mama! I've been raped by an Argie!"
"How do you know he was an Argie?"
"He made me thank him afterwards!"

[Justin Trullinger]

I agree- Mexicans are quite thoroughly wrapped up in their very unique slang- it does make a lot of natives stop and wonder. For me, Chile would be comparable, though.

The one thing I miss about Spain is the profanity- a really fun place to swear! Here in Ecuador, even the mildest profanity is seen as out of place in all but the most intimate circles.

Justin