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biffinbridge
Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 701
Location: Frank's Wild Years
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 Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:36 pm Post subject: MA TESOL/Applied Linguistics etc..what a load of ch.... |
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| If you just want to stay in a classroom and teach does anyone think that the MA is worth doing?It's bloody expensive,can be highly theoretical and you can get jobs in the 'Gulf' without one.Some of the worst teachers I've ever seen have been the MA qualified 40-something brigade in countries like Libya and Qatar.I've taught university graduates,(English Philologists),several times over the years and being able to quote Chomsky et al really wouldn't have made a jot of difference.As an employer,I'd take a CELTA qualified teacher with ten years experience over a fresh faced MA newbie any day.Yep, it can open doors at uni etc but Applied Linguistics has to be the dullest subject on earth. |
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Zero Hero
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 944
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:19 am Post subject: Re: MA TESOL/Applied Linguistics etc..what a load of ch.... |
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No wonder you have not received any replies.
"Just" stay in the classroom? What is meant by that? Would it be better if (by your standards) it was cheaper? Personally, I don't think you should have ever been put in the same room as university graduates, though it is obvious that if you were then you would have been well out of your depth. Why would Chomsky "et al." (I would like to know who these others are) ever appear in an MA TESOL or Applied Linguistics? There is not much generative grammar or minimalism in either of those two fields! It's not likely that you would look at A-bar movement, LF, PF, or anaphoric resolution! |
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31
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 1797
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah but you four weekers end up in Qatar working for two and a half grand a month-1300 quid?. You get the lowest paid jobs and have little choice. |
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marblez
Joined: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 248
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:42 am Post subject: Re: MA TESOL/Applied Linguistics etc..what a load of ch.... |
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| Zero Hero wrote: |
No wonder you have not received any replies.
Chomsky "et al." (I would like to know who these others are) |
I was wondering that as well...
biffin, was your graduate degree a waste as well? What was the subject? Just curious. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| I guess the others are Krashen, Cohen, Hendrickson, and Ervin, just to name a few. |
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Zero Hero
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 944
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| And what does Chomsky have in common with Krashen, apart from being male and American? |
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AsiaTraveller
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 908
Location: Singapore, Mumbai, Penang, Denpasar, Berkeley
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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There goes dear Ludwig again with "anaphoric resolution"!
| on September 21, 2004, Ludwig wrote: |
| Have you ever taught at a university in the Netherlands (or, indeed, in any land outside of the Third World)? I think not. (I hate to have to be the one to tell you this, but teaching technical English writing at a university in the Netherlands may well be very different from being sent to a factory floor by a private training centre on the grim Mainland. They will be looking at a whole host of cohesive devices (see Salkie's Text and Discourse Analysis), anaphoric resolution, paragraph structure, etc. You, by stark contrast, were no doubt teaching 'technical' colours, shapes, and greetings.) |
The stench of pedantry, like that of ripe durian, is immediately recognizable and never forgotten. |
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AsiaTraveller
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 908
Location: Singapore, Mumbai, Penang, Denpasar, Berkeley
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Zero Hero wrote: |
| And what does Chomsky have in common with Krashen, apart from being male and American? |
They have each produced significant (and influential) work on language acquisition.
Duh. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The stench of pedantry, like that of ripe durian, is immediately recognizable and never forgotten. |
Or it could be, that you are allergic to the sweet smell of true knowledge :)
| Quote: |
They have each produced significant (and influential) work on language acquisition.
Duh. |
I would like to see the significance of Krashen, or who he has influenced, apart from a gaggle of the gullible.
Krashen is basically a snake oil salesman who has got away with claiming his theories are based on Chomsky's because few have bothered to read Chomsky. Chomsky specifically stated that the did not think his ideas necessarily had any relevance to second language learning, but Krashen proceeded to bandy about a couple of his concepts to back up quite unscientific speculations.
Krashen's suggestions for teaching language are eminently sensible; this is why people still listen to him, but the theoretical basis is laughable.
Chomsky and Krashen have as much in common as Newton and necromancy. |
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AsiaTraveller
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 908
Location: Singapore, Mumbai, Penang, Denpasar, Berkeley
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| And that rotten stench also rises from the Middle East (or is it Sri Lanka this week?) as well as from HK. |
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Zero Hero
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 944
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| AsiaTraveller wrote: |
| They have each produced significant (and influential) work on language acquisition. |
Perhaps you could furnish the forum with just one work authored by Chomsky on language acquisition. |
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AsiaTraveller
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 908
Location: Singapore, Mumbai, Penang, Denpasar, Berkeley
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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Even Zero Luddy should be able to parse a simple English sentence such as the following:
| AsiaTraveller wrote: |
| They have each produced significant (and influential) work on language acquisition. |
As the zero well knows, I wrote work and not works. Does the zero not know how the word work is used in academic research?
So the work of Chomsky of course includes the following seminal ideas about language acquisition (and use) that profoundly influenced linguistics and, by extension, all language teaching (including TESL/TEFL), as well as developmental psychology, cognitive science, neurobiology, and many other fields:
generative grammar
transformational grammar
nativist theories of language acquisition (including Universal Grammar)
competence
performance
For starters, perhaps Zero Luddy can consult the following early "works" if he isn't familiar with Chomsky's "work". Yes, Chomsky has revised his ideas and conclusions since the 1960s, but haven't we all??
Syntactic Structures (1957)
Aspects of the Theory of Syntax (1969) |
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Zero Hero
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 944
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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There is no mention of language acquisition in Syntactic Structures at all; and the Standard Theory only outlines philosophical aspects to L1 acquisition, and only in the first 62 pages.
By the way, the Standard Theory (Aspects), was published in 1965 (not 1969), as any linguist would know. |
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AsiaTraveller
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 908
Location: Singapore, Mumbai, Penang, Denpasar, Berkeley
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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Note to the OP of this thread:
Pure pedantry--in Luddy's case--seems to be the only value of an advanced degree.
If Zero Ludwig still doesn't see why Chomsky's work would be studied in any discipline (including an M.A. program in TESOL or in Applied Linguistics) that deals with language acquisition and learning, he should perhaps consider retiring yet again from the ESL Cafe and starting from scratch (yet again) with a new screenname.
After all, the zero began this particular exchange with the following:
| Zero Hero wrote: |
| Why would Chomsky ... ever appear in an MA TESOL or Applied Linguistics? |
I've adequately demonstrated "why" with an enumeration of only some of Chomsky's contributions:
generative grammar
transformational grammar
nativist theories of language acquisition (including Universal Grammar)
competence
performance
How many ESL Cafe readers have learned about any or all of these topics in a class (or book) in a TESOL or Applied Linguistics program? How many ESL Cafe readers have referred to these topics in postings on these boards?
I guess the zero would argue that such topics are irrelevant to the study of ESL/EFL and applied linguistics. One wonders why. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Krashen's suggestions for teaching language are eminently sensible |
They may be sensible but lack somewhat in application. Such as Krashen's theory on comprehensible input(i+1). While the theory makes sense it provides us with little knowledge that can be applied in a real life. |
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