Job Discussion Forums

[Okami]

There are 2 ways to combat circular logic. Both are kind of tricky and require you to think differently. They also determine who's in charge. Sometimes, it is best to go along with the circular logic to "keep the harmony." Striking a correct balance is the key and the hardest part. Too many people get so upset with things being gray, that they never figure the exact shade of gray they should be on.

1. Yes-yes-yes-NO/No-no-no-Yes argument. I've seen Chinese do this with regularity. You build-up a logical case with an easily drawn conclusion and they totally reject the conclusion, or you talk to them about something that shouldn't be done and get the invariable, "Yes, but..." Start using this technique yourself. Western logic is useless against people who act illogically at times and are heavy believers in fate. This technique takes alot of practice and you have to learn your limits as to how far you can go with it.

2. "Wo wang ji le/ wo bu zhi dao, bu hao yi si" This is I forgot/I didn't know, how embarrassing. This is a common tactic for employees. They then meekly give in to what ever verbal scolding, which is surprisingly light, because they don't argue back just stand there with a silent, slightly embarrassed/shocked look on their face. It works like a charm. "Bu hao yi si" is the grease that keeps Chinese society running. It's like saying sorry, but not meaning it and makes everyone happy.

While you're trying these out don't forget about "hao ting." This is incredibly powerful. Literally transaltes as "good to hear." This is why Chinese people lay it on heavy with all the compliments and sweet words. Even if you know it is complete bull$h1t(it normally is), you will be swayed into thinking favorably of them. Please use it in the same token, as it works better when done by "proud arrogant" westerners(the way they see us) to "poor little" Chinese(they way they like to portray themselves when not getting their way).

Two books to read to better arm yourself are
1. "Thick Face, Black Heart" by Chin-Ning Chu
2. "Influence: Psychology of Persuasion" by Robert B. Cialdini

Also read this on Behavorial psychology in regards to economics
http://econ-www.mit.edu/faculty/mullain/files/papers/Encyclopedia.pdf

"Broad Generalizations"
Psychology and logic are your greatest advantages. Chinese are great at rote memorization, they can tell you "the what" but not "the why". Do some research into psychology, specifically Chinese psychology. Michael Harris Bond has a few books on it. Watch how Chinese interact and talk to them about it in an offhand manner, not to raise any suspicions. Plan for contingencies, Chinese are constantly doing this. Ni shiang tai duo le/you think to much is a common Chinese phrase/scold. There are other techniques and I'm no pro at all(any?) of them.

Like I said before, practice and technique are very important. Don't get hung up on meanings/set forms, learn to go with the flow and redirect it. Start seeing how other's problems wouldn't be problems for you and think why, but do not tell them! Nobody likes a showoff or someone more successful than them. You have to learn to keep your moth shut and employ "hao ting" to good effect.

CYA
Okami

[Okami]

I see you've been reading the "Art of War" and the "36 Strategies" or some book with those ideas in them. He's pretty much right about it all. I fully concur with the points written and expresse by "TheyCallMeTrinity."

TheyCallMeTrinity wrote:
"Trust me, eating Tawianese cold, raw, and with your hands can be a life-affirming, wonderful thing - so to speak."

This is so true. Taiwan and Taiwanese have taught me so much about myself and the kind of person I want to be. There are only 2 types of long termers here. Those who go native and those who learn how to play the game.

TheyCallMeTrinity wrote:
"I have come the conclusion that products of the Taiwanese education system cannot compete when their own logic is used against them. We, educated outside of the farce that is the Taiwanese education system - have the benefit of being able to utilize rational thought, intuition, and creative, independent thinking. We adapt very well to situations and can turn tables easier. This is their (dirty, filthy, corrupt) land and their (dirty, filthy, corrupt) rules. The only way to beat them at their own game is to learn how to play it and then subject them to it at ten times the speed."

This is exactly why Asia will never catch up to the west. We learn how to learn, they don't. An fortunately, they refuse to listen to laowai.

CYA
Okami

[TheyCallMeTrinity]

i]Okami[/i]

This is so true. Taiwan and Taiwanese have taught me so much about myself and the kind of person I want to be. There are only 2 types of long termers here. Those who go native and those who learn how to play the game.[/b][/i]

I wish I could say the same thing. Instead, it has taught me that I can be a person I NEVER wanted to be: cold, ruthless, mean-spirited and delighted at screwing over someone whom I thought would do the same to me.

I am not a long termer in terms of having a future here. I'm only a long-termer in terms of sticking around. If there wasn't global war going on I'd split to Japan sooner with no worries. I've been here a couple of years and will be here until 2005 and then it's off to somewhere more civilized, or if I am lucky enough to save enough money (without working myself to the bone) I'll head back to Japan sooner. I've had my fill of the "civilized savages" here. I don't hate it here nor do I hate the locals, but I TRUST NOTHING here. I am spiteful that they behave like animals to themselves, and never find it surprising we are trated as equals in that respect. Not one person or thing here do I trust. Taiwan taught me that. I'd rather be naive, but such is not in my personality.



This is exactly why Asia will never catch up to the west. We learn how to learn, they don't. An fortunately, they refuse to listen to laowai.

CYA
Okami



I disagree. Despite some of their economic problems, Japan and Hong Kong buck this trend. They are generally civilized places, save the fact that many Hong Kongese will rip each other off with abandon. You can take the Chinese out of China but you can't take the China out of the Chinese. I will, however, agree that ALL ethnically Chinese societies cannot behave themselves unless: a.) Foreign colonizers established a buttload of guidelines for them to follow (England with Hong Kong), forcing them to adapt to ways that actually protect them, or they are ruled with a brutal, iron-hand that deprives them of any freedom because Chinese soical order only shows that Chinese ABUSE freedom by using it to enslave each other, so they must be under a permanent state of "babysitting" ala B.) Singapore. In Singapore, Papa "Lee" and his nannies tell you what you can watch, hear and read and maintain law and order by spoiling the rod and not sparing the "child." It's like most only seem to understand spaking. Sadly, Taiwan - one of the few to have a semblence of a "Democracy" - has proven it cannot behave, nor can it establish any semblence of fair and equal law and order. They only understand being "spanked" (literally or euphamistically). Far too many Taiwanese are uncognisent thieves, liars and are morally unscrupulous - those that defy this stereotype often get the hell outta dodge, post haste.

Why else is it that they want to come to Western Countries that have established order that protects an individual's rights? They simply don't care about each other and are sloths and too lazy to change things, for the most part. Really, most Taiwanese homes are filthy and housewives really DO NOTHING and if they can't do this for themselves, what makes them able to do this with each other? They don't really clean either. Dispicable.

Unlike Korea, where the xenophobia and racism is carried around with pride, here it simply comes from stupidity. Most are not willing participants but naive fools who don't know better.

Taiwan is a nation run by school yard rules. So, I advise folks to make money, make love to the locals, and to get out once you've had your fill. That's what every foreign force did to China and Taiwan anyway....

In a bad mood today,
Trinity

[TaoyuanSteve]

I can't believe that such ethno-centric and racist crap is allowed in these forums. "All ethnically chinese societies..." Where are the white sheets?

[TheyCallMeTrinity]

[Seth]

Not to sound pedantic, but 'hao ting' (like 'hao he' 'hao kan' 'hao chi', etc.) means more like 'the sound is good', as in the actual sound being pleasant to the ears. 'na ting hao le' is more like 'that sounds good' as in the idea is good. Switch the hao and the ting.
But everything else is spot on, for the most part. Having been in China and planning on Taiwan, and being foolish enough to take Mandarin while in college, I can play the Chinese game very well. Chinese culture sucks the idealism and romanticism right out of you. Now I'm one bad mother fucker.

[Sunpower]

Yeah, they are real pigs, aren't they?

They disgust me with the way they throw their garbage on the ground.

They throw their trash on the ground without even thinking about it. I watched one guy walk out of a convenience store today and casually throw his cigarette package wrapping on the ground, along with the tin foil. I asked him why he did that, pointing to the garbage at his feet and he just shrugged his shoulders and then rode away on his scooter.

Saw the same thing on on Thursday night. Guy buys a note book. Walks out of the store, sits on a bench, unwraps the book and just drops all of the plastic on the ground! I couldn't belive it!



[quote]it has taught me that I can be a person I NEVER wanted to be: cold, ruthless, mean-spirited and delighted at screwing over someone whom I thought would do the same to me. [/quote]

I agree with this quote.

I can't believe how dishonest they can be. I went into work and asked for my January pay. The owner said that she had just got back from Hong Kong and didn't have any money. Bullshit!! I told her I wouldn't teach until I got paid for January. Pay day was on February 6th and I demanded my money. Well, she caughed up the money and I went in to teach. They would rip you off in a heart beat and I definitely don't trust them with money. They almost have to have something hanging over them to make them pay you on time. Very tough and go.

[quote]I've had my fill of the "civilized savages" here. I don't hate it here nor do I hate the locals, but I TRUST NOTHING here. I am spiteful that they behave like animals to themselves, and never find it surprising we are trated as equals in that respect. Not one person or thing here do I trust. Taiwan taught me that. [/quote]

I was walking home tonight and I thought the same thing. I was afraid to walk on the side of the road as the motorcyles were almost hitting me! Scared the crap out of me. If there was ever a chance that I'd be hit and seriously injured or killed by a car - it would be here in Taiwan!

They drive lik Friggin' animals!! Seriously. Just watch them on their bikes weaving in and out of traffic and riding on the sidewalks.

Unbelievable. Animals!!
The aggression is amazing.

They insist on the right of way and do not back down for anything.

It's actually amusing to watch them drive.



[quote]ALL ethnically Chinese societies cannot behave themselves unless: a.) Foreign colonizers established a buttload of guidelines for them to follow (England with Hong Kong), forcing them to adapt to ways that actually protect them, or they are ruled with a brutal, iron-hand that deprives them of any freedom because Chinese soical order only shows that Chinese ABUSE freedom by using it to enslave each other, so they must be under a permanent state of "babysitting" ala B.) Singapore. In Singapore, Papa "Lee" and his nannies tell you what you can watch, hear and read and maintain law and order by spoiling the rod and not sparing the "child." It's like most only seem to understand spaking. Sadly, Taiwan - one of the few to have a semblence of a "Democracy" - has proven it cannot behave, nor can it establish any semblence of fair and equal law and order. They only understand being "spanked" (literally or euphamistically). Far too many Taiwanese are uncognisent thieves, liars and are morally unscrupulous - those that defy this stereotype often get the hell outta dodge, post haste.
[/quote]

Yeah, I agree - They act like children who need to be watched and monitored because they don't know how to act fairly or responsible.

My own students have even admitted this in one of my corporate classes that I teach when we've discussed the political situation in China and Taiwan and how the governments behave.

A good example is the pirating of licensed goods.

China is a huge offender in this respect. But they're seen as an iresponisble child. Not capable of acting responsibly.

[TaoyuanSteve]

Please grow up? Firstly, I'm not spewing racist garbage in a forum that is supposed to be for discussing your job as an English teacher. Find another forum, preferably David Duke's to spread your crap about your perceived inferiority of Chinese societies.

If you don't think what you say is offensive garbage, then print off a copy and show it to your Taiwanese employer. If you have any teeth left (let alone a job) when s/