Job Discussion Forums

[tjpnz2000]

Interesting thread, some points.

In my experience, Japan, if students have the vocab and grammar to express themselves, and are confident in thier ability, and they are given a topic of interest, and they are confident in your not support; then they will talk and express opinions. Yes, we are talking about high level students.

I think that teachers are responsible for teaching, students are responsible for learning.

The biggest problem is a lack of confidence in thier own ability. My policy is to correct but never critisize, I often tell students although they may think they can't speak English thier English is much better than my Japanese (the truth!), for expressing opinions I will use completely hyperthetical situations this has a better response than `What do you think about X` because the student knows thier personal opinions are not being expressed and open to being critisized.

I think you are really getting on thin ice when critisize a regional culture for being `backward`, `immature` or `narrow`. However much you want to bash them they are taking the time to learn a new language.

T

[arioch36]

Sherri...you touched on something I find interesting. You say you often have to focus on such skills like making an outline or how to have a conversation. I find this so incredibly true in China. Of course, we say they copy copy copy. I know traditionally, ie SONG DYnasty, other imperial dynasties, this is how you passed the test. You memorized vast amount of "Confucian" text. Then there were commentaries written by a few powerful (male) leaders that would tell you what these texts were talking about.

To do well on the test is was important that you knew what these commentaries said about the given Confucian text. The student given his own opinion would be unthinkable. Does Japanese have a similar history?

I wonder what they do on their Chinese essays and the thesis they have to write to graduate. Well, on the thesis they have to write it is all borrowed, usual. This way you will not be criticized for thinking the wrong thing. So these students are betweena rock and a hard place.

They don't know how to crate an outline or have a conversation. These are simply not important skills in the hierarchy.


Regarding all these techniques.... it is a new one every couple of years. I heard now there is something new in CELTA/England called "pushing". What we called 15 years ago as integrated learning...different classes should work together to intergrate and reinforce key ideas, vocabularies, etc.
If it is new, it ain't true...and if it's true, it ain't new

I had a lot of fun in my Certification course. It was in depth and had hours of supervised teaching, even some co-teaching with one instructor. It was a blast. Didn't help me much in China though. Little relevance.

[Sherri]

Yes, Arioch36, it is very similar here. A Japanese friend of mine was studying to become a teacher here in Japan. On one of his courses the professor asked different students in the class what one word they would use to describe the USA. Of course each student came up with a different adjective and to each the professor said "wrong". He then told them the "right" answer--which is "multicultural". So everyone wrote this down in their notebooks and I suppose come exam time that is the answer they were expected to write. Anything else would be wrong. I think it is pretty indicative of how academic life works here. I used to wonder why my students kept asking me for the right answer when we were talking about something opinion-based and they were quite frustrated when I told them that any number of answers could be correct.

I enjoyed my cert course too (done in the late 80s). I learned a lot but it was pretty firmly grounded in PPP which not only has been thoroughly discredited in the UK but has been totally useless in Japan where students just don't need a grammar presentation (among many other reasons). Now I have to concentrate on teaching them real basics that I would never have to teach European learners like how to make a summary. How many people teaching in an Asian country have had their students do a debate only to find that instead of debating, they try to reach a compromise?

[slaqdog]

If you pay peanuts you get monkeys
sing, monkey boy, sing for your supper.
The reason a lot of Asians do not like answering the question 'what did you do on the weekend?" is the answer "played with myself" can be, well, you know
I feel you are all wanting to know the answer to the question as the Prof may have put it 'Why can't an Aisian be more like a westerner' from the tone of this thread the assumption is that the west is SOOOOOO superior it should be accepted by everyone, well they think we smell bad, and well guys..........Do you smell something a bit wiffy?
love and patience

[Marcoregano]

My pennysworth....I teach large classes of Hong Kong Chinese adults (supposedly lower intermediate-intermediate grammar) and unfortunately have to agree with much of the negative material above. I won't bother going thru it again. Somebody said that the old grammar styles work and if that's what the students want then that's what we should give them.

BUT...it isn't that easy. My students have had the grammar style most of their lives but it obviously hasn't worked...despite years of English at school their speaking skills (and even grammar skills!) are often abysmal. I recently finished my classes for this year and gave my students a feedback questionnaire. The results were quite interesting. Every student said that they want more grammar in future (not surprising). Every student except one also said that they liked working in groups and also that they thought speaking English with each other in class was a good way of improving their speaking ability.

However, in reality these group exercises and discussions don't work very well, except with the most confident (or should that be 'westernised' or 'liberated'?) individuals. Most are reluctant to use English in class situations, or simply revert to Cantonese almost immediately. As the questionnaire revealed, they know what they should be doing (practising their English with each other) but are seemingly unable to do it. But they also know that pure grammar won't fix their problem.

It would be interesting to get some feedback on this thread from a native Chinese teacher of English, and see how they figure it. But don't expect a straight answer. I recently asked my accountant, who I feel I know quite well (a 30 something HK-Chinese guy who spent 5 years studying at university in England) why the locals have such a hang-up about revealing their age. Instead of giving me an answer he remained silent and went red in the face. Laugh? I almost cried.

[arioch36]

In writing, my main goal has been to get them to have a these/controlling idea, whatever the most current term is. What is your purpose? And then you can learn techniques to help better.

In oral, WWWWWH, High school, language school, college.

Who What Why Where How much, etc. When you can get them at any age to ask such question, and answer in complete sentences, they will develop good grammar, use of prepositions, sentence structure, etc.

There is my whole teaching philosophy in anutshell for all to use or abuse.

I hate their intensive reading (as do the teachers and students, but unlike me they have no choice) I want them to expand their vocabulary, but especially to understand prefixes and suffixes, and ther purposs in reading english

[Roger]

The reason why the "old-fashioned" grammar teaching style fails in China is simple: It is done in the CHinese way, that is English is the TOPIC for the CHinese teacher to talk about, not talk in. He or she will explain every word and structure and rule in his vernacular. Their teachers talk too much, and they talk too much in Chinese. The kids never learn to analyse and to think for themselves, to learn how to solve problems.
I had to study four languages simultaneously, and we were not allowed to flunk exams. I can safely say I am perfectly trilingual in three of these languages studied (yes, I had a good grounding in them through immersion before, but we had to study grammar too, and by gosh, I was not exactly brilliant at grammar then!).
There is another aspect that bothers me: Today's generations the world over don't appreciate literature the way we did. They want instant gratification, and thus they watch TV and videos. This is even more pronounced in China than it is anywhere in the West. The only books these young learners ever handle are school textbooks.
And the fact that almost every Hong Kong school kid has a mobile phone should give rise to worries too. It is so much easier to punch keys than to write a whole message.

[Lynn]

I teach at an ESL school in the states. The students come from all over the world. You you name it, we got it. At my job training, one of the rules of the school is to never, ever walk into a classroom and ask,"So, how was your weekend?" This school has a very interesting and effective methodology when it comes to guided conversation. Unfortunately, I taught for 5 years in Japan and at other schools in the states, so it's still hard to break away from my old teaching style. However, if done properly, even Asian students who normally answer in one word replies if any, can participate like the others.

[arioch36]

I agree, Asian students can break away from their bad habit of one word answers. This is one reason I like teaching freshman, whether college or high school. It is so much easiere to train them in new habits. They are willing to try incredibly heart. I love their hearts. But by grade two, their habits have been formed, and it is so much harder to help them change.

Input from other countries desired. In China, it is impossible to get good literature for the students to read. Now maybe me and Roger agree or disagree on literature. I don't mean Becket or Hawthorne. I mean just everyday, half worthwhile novel in somewhat modern English for the students to read. It just is not available for students in China. They have nothing to read. What about other countries?

Chris in Henan

[Sherri]

In Japan and Tokyo especially we are so lucky. There is so much in English available. There are several English language newspapers, some of them print articles from British and US newspapers. There are second-hand English language bookstores and there is Amazon Japan, so we can order books on-line and have them delivered in a couple of days.

We set up a little library in our school for the students to encourage them to read. The teachers donated books and magazines to get it started. It's been going for a couple of years now.

[ESL Guru]

Me thinks that what most ESL programs lack is a tollerence for the development of a regional English.