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ghost
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1693
Location: Saudi Arabia
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 Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 2:45 pm Post subject: Learning Mandarin or Taiwanese in Taichung - easy/hard? |
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Hi folks:
Planning on working at a High School near Taichung City in September.
Is learning Mandarin useful for that area, or is Mandarin very different from the local Taiwanese variety of Chinese?
Have any teachers here learned Mandarin or Taiwan variety Chinese during the year, and how difficult was it?
Is it possible to learn the two (Mandarin and Taiwanese) at the same time, or would that be impractical?
Thanks for any tips about this. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 3:30 am Post subject: Re: Learning Mandarin or Taiwanese in Taichung - easy/hard? |
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| ghost wrote: |
| Is learning Mandarin useful for that area, or is Mandarin very different from the local Taiwanese variety of Chinese? |
Mandarin will be useful wherever you go, and will help you enjoy your time in Taiwan much more than if you only spoke English. Taiwanese is more widely used outside of the big cities, but generally speaking, people can speak Mandarin if that is the language you use with them. The exceptions are some elderly people who only speak Japanese and Taiwanese.
| ghost wrote: |
| Have any teachers here learned Mandarin or Taiwan variety Chinese during the year, and how difficult was it? |
There are a lot more westerners speaking Mandarin in Taiwan now than ever before. In the past there was an expectation by shop keepers upon seeing a foreign face that the shop keeper would need to try to speak English or find someone that could in order to help you. The assumption being that foreigners don't speak Mandarin. Nowadays, shop keepers will often address you in Mandarin. If you looked confused or failed to answer then I guess that they would convert to their previous methods of attempting to communicate, but as many foreigners now speak some level of Mandarin, often the deal will be done in Chinese.
With so many foreigners now speaking and studying Mandarin, the number of people studying Taiwanese is also on the rise. Personally, I think a knowledge of and ability in Taiwanese is of only novelty value for a foreigner. Yes, it could be useful if you live down south or in a rural area, but once you move into a city, or to another country the value of learning Taiwanese would be lost. If you were married to a local and were going to be living here for the rest of your life then Taiwanese may be useful. If you are only going to be here for a number of years then I would concentrate on becoming fluent in Mandarin. It will be far more useful.
| ghost wrote: |
| Is it possible to learn the two (Mandarin and Taiwanese) at the same time, or would that be impractical? |
There are some similarities between the two, but I wouldn't attempt to learn both. As I mentioned the value of learning Taiwanese is not clear to me, and any attempt to learn both may lead to confusion. Most foreigners who I am aware of who can speak Taiwanese became proficient in Mandarin first and then took up the extra challenge of learning Taiwanese. I don't know of any foreigners who use Taiwanese for anything other than novelty value though.
One final word of advice. Make a commitment to learn and get into the habit of blocking out your mornings or whatever for study. It is easy to learn Chinese here this way and you could become very proficient in the language within a year or two of full time study. Don't get caught up in the earning a dollar vs. study equation! |
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Taylor
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 384
Location: Texas/Taiwan
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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I "second" all of the comments made by Mr. Griswald.  I've lived here over 7 years without really needing Taiwanese. It would be fun to learn more, but I definitely agree that we "foreigners" should focus on Mandarin.
Taiwanese is used by the locals when they wish to establish a close bond with other locals. Of course, the more languages that you know, the better; however, being able to speak Mandarin is a major accomplishment.
Jia-yeo!!!
Taylor
Kaohsiung |
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ghost
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1693
Location: Saudi Arabia
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject: Learning Mandarin |
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Thank you for the very informative replies, including the one from Griswald.
Another question:
1. Do most foreigners in Taiwan (and Mainland for that matter) concentrate their efforts on just `oral communication` or do they also learn the writing system? One imagines that learning the writing system would be a long and laborious process, especially for someone just wanting to stay in the country for 1-2 years.
2. For the `average learner` (if there is such a person), what type of time commitment would it take to learn basic spoken Mandarin on a daily/weekly basis? In my case, 1-2 hours a day, before or after class would be about as much as possible, due to fatigue and lesson prepartion commitments.
3. Conflicting information is bizarre. Some people claim that Mandarin is the hardest language in the world to learn, in part due to the different tones which can be confusing for learners.
Others claim that Mandarin, is in fact deceptively easy to learn, compared with English, as the grammar is simple, and much of the language is devoid of exceptions to the rule (which is not the case with English).
Who should one believe with regard to the above?
4. Could someone enlighten one on the system used to learn languages by Mormon Missionaries.
Mormons work 2 year contracts in all parts of the world, and they are all fluent in the local tongue of the area (including Mandarin, and other esoteric languages).
It would be interesting and useful to learn how they acquire such proficient fluency during the training period they undergo somewhere in the State of Utah, U.S.A.
One recalls meeting Mormons in Guatemala, who spoke a very complex Mayan language (Quiche) and also in the Philippines - others who spoke fluent Tagalog. |
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puiwaihin
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Learning Mandarin |
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| ghost wrote: |
| 1. Do most foreigners in Taiwan (and Mainland for that matter) concentrate their efforts on just `oral communication` or do they also learn the writing system? One imagines that learning the writing system would be a long and laborious process, especially for someone just wanting to stay in the country for 1-2 years. |
You can do just fine if you don't learn the written. Learn written if you plan to use it over the course of your life. It's a big investment in time.
| Quote: |
| 2. For the `average learner` (if there is such a person), what type of time commitment would it take to learn basic spoken Mandarin on a daily/weekly basis? In my case, 1-2 hours a day, before or after class would be about as much as possible, due to fatigue and lesson prepartion commitments. |
If you keep to that (and most don't) you'll do well. But that means just basic Chinese in a couple years. It will take about 3 times as long to reach basic Chinese as basic Spanish in the same amount of time for a native English speaker.
| Quote: |
3. Conflicting information is bizarre. Some people claim that Mandarin is the hardest language in the world to learn, in part due to the different tones which can be confusing for learners.
Others claim that Mandarin, is in fact deceptively easy to learn, compared with English, as the grammar is simple, and much of the language is devoid of exceptions to the rule (which is not the case with English).
Who should one believe with regard to the above? |
Both are right, but you have to understand that Chinese is a truly foreign language. It is not THE hardest language in the world for English speakers, but any dialect of Chinese will be as tough a challenge as anything you want to try and tackle. But English is just as difficult for Chiense to learn.
The hard part is the beginning. It gets easier, but most people quit before they get to the easy part.
| Quote: |
4. Could someone enlighten one on the system used to learn languages by Mormon Missionaries.
Mormons work 2 year contracts in all parts of the world, and they are all fluent in the local tongue of the area (including Mandarin, and other esoteric languages).
It would be interesting and useful to learn how they acquire such proficient fluency during the training period they undergo somewhere in the State of Utah, U.S.A.
One recalls meeting Mormons in Guatemala, who spoke a very complex Mayan language (Quiche) and also in the Philippines - others who spoke fluent Tagalog. |
I'm an ex-Mormon. I was a missionary. The language training is pretty good-- 2 months intensive (5-9 hours a day) every day. But then they also use the language constantly and have a very high motivation to learn. You learn much faster in the field than you do in training, but the training provides a solid basis for later learning.
And I would be remiss if I didn't say that I and many others believe there is a spiritual aspect to the success rate as well.
I run a site to help people learn Chinese: http://www.chinawestexchange.com |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 1:55 am Post subject: Re: Learning Mandarin |
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| ghost wrote: |
| 1. Do most foreigners in Taiwan (and Mainland for that matter) concentrate their efforts on just `oral communication` or do they also learn the writing system? One imagines that learning the writing system would be a long and laborious process, especially for someone just wanting to stay in the country for 1-2 years. |
This depends upon what you really want to learn, and where you want to study. I would recommend the university language programs rather than private language institutes. They are both training centers so there are no qualifications for entry other than tuition, but I found the university courses to be a lot tougher.
Many schools in Taiwan will first teach you the Taiwan phoenetic alphabet (bopomofo). This is a set of very simple characters that are quite easy to learn, and are an alternative to pinyin. In combination they help you pronounce words. Although the jury is out on whether it is better to learn pinyin or bopomofo, I personally like bopomofo as it does not contain any relationship to the roman alphabet. Because of this each new sound is a Chinese sound, and once you have learned these Chinese sounds, then I believe that you can speak more clearly without any interference from English.
Many childrens books and Chinese language textbooks in Taiwan contain the characters with the bopomofo next to them, and this is how kids here learn how to read. They learn the bopomofo first, and then as they read a passage they read the Chinese characters that they know, and the bopomofo for the characters that they don't know. This way you can start to read Chinese passages of text even if you only know half of the words. The more exposure you get to the characters, the quicker you pick them up as many character sounds have similar symbols (radicals) in them.
Personally, my reading and writing is stronger than my speaking and listening ability. I write letters in Chinese to friends (by hand as I can't use the computer very well yet) and they write back to me in Chinese. I read signs and menus all the time and this helps too.
Writing takes practice, but I enjoy it. You need to actually learn and memorize each character, character by character. Although characters are made up of radicals, this is very different than English where words are made up of letters.
| ghost wrote: |
| 2. For the `average learner` (if there is such a person), what type of time commitment would it take to learn basic spoken Mandarin on a daily/weekly basis? In my case, 1-2 hours a day, before or after class would be about as much as possible, due to fatigue and lesson prepartion commitments. |
Most university programs require you to attend class two hours a day, five days a week. This is great if you are intending to work as well. I actually only attended formal studies for about six months, but had I stayed for a full year, I believe that I would have been fluent enough for most daily situations.
| ghost wrote: |
3. Conflicting information is bizarre. Some people claim that Mandarin is the hardest language in the world to learn, in part due to the different tones which can be confusing for learners.
Others claim that Mandarin, is in fact deceptively easy to learn, compared with English, as the grammar is simple, and much of the language is devoid of exceptions to the rule (which is not the case with English).
Who should one believe with regard to the above? |
In my opinion, Chinese is not a difficult language to learn, but it is a difficult language to master.
Firstly there is the problem with tones. I can hear the tones and I believe that I am reproducing them, but often I am not reproducing them correctly, particularly when you are having a discussion. Therefore, whilst listeners can understand me, they have no doubt that I am not a native Chinese (on the telephone I mean).
Secondly, while there are a certain number of common characters that can be learned, there are many more obscure characters that are not often learned. For most of us I don't believe that we need to learn those characters, but in order to be truely fluent I guess that we would have to. I think that very few foreigners reach that level of fluency.
If you haven't already done so, then check out puiwaihin's website. It looks like exactly the place you are looking for for your answers! Great site puiwaihin! |
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ghost
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1693
Location: Saudi Arabia
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 3:55 pm Post subject: difficult to reproduce |
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Did my first lesson yesterday with a native speaker.
The phonetic script in the English to Chinese book did not represent what it should to the ears of the Chinese listener...
For example the phonetics for "I don't know" put "Wo bu shi-dao" as the phonetic script (with accents) - but when trying to say this, the Chinese listener did not understand, and said it a very different way.
It is going to be a challenge to get to grips with the tones.
Congratularions to Griswald and co. for persisting and overcoming the initial challenges. |
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Incredible Ape
Joined: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 118
Location: Witness Protection Programme
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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As everyone says, it's not a task to undertake lightly.
I've seen a lot of people arrive in China (and I dare say Taiwan) and say "I'm gonna get fluent in two years". I've seen one or two people do it, but the failure:success ratio is about 10:1, at a guesstimate. So it is possible, but bl00dy difficult.
For me personally, I see Manadarin as something to acquire over the long term, picking it up bit by bit. I tried to set these targets in the early days, but it was just too awesome a task. Now I only study for the pleasure, when I feel like it. Works a lot better for me.
And don't forget: TONES TONES TONES TONES. Did I mention TONES? Learn these at the beginning. They actually aren't that difficult at a practical level(although mastery surely is), but they are absolutely essential. Learn them by rote. Have somebody read out words, and you have to name the tone. Then you read out a list of words, and they have to guess which tone your using. TONES my boy, TONES. |
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