Job Discussion Forums

[Glenski]

[SEndrigo]

hahahaha, the two messages by TawtViet are perhaps the most hate-filled diatribes I've ever read on this message board...and that's saying a lot !

Calling Japan the most evil nation on Earth, along with your other obviously biased, fanatical statements won't generate much sympathy for you.

Just take it easy mate....despite your complaints, the world will remain pretty much the same.

cheers

[Lister100]

Something that might be worth consideration is that the teaching of English is a major form of colonization. Is there any country in the world that enjoyed being colonized? True this form of colonization is far less brutal and the colonizers don't wield the power they previously had, but they(we) are introducing a world vision that is threatening to all the traditions of these people. Even if it is for economic gain and a better life, does this irradicate the stench of losing your way and watching your children become less recognizable? We in the west have been exposed to this globalization for a long time and people have largely forgotten what it was like to even have a traditional society with community and societal norms. It had its faults but there were happy people then as there are now. They weren't a lesser people for their lack of world view anymore than we are for our lack of community.

Language is probably the biggest part of culture because once you lose your language you lose your communal way of thinking and understanding the past. Ask the North American Natives about this and they'll tell you how hard it is to find your way in a system that isn't yours. I took a university course on native lit. and I'll tell you it'll keep you up at night. You'll say that they can always keep Japanese, but the fact is that once you open your country up to a powerful foreign language there's no telling where it will end. The Welch, Scottish and Irish unwillingly learned that lesson. Imagine being descriminated against in your own country for not knowing the language of a foreign culture. Hard to imagine for a native English speaker since English speaking countries are strangely all very insular. Britain an island nation, US a lone power house in a continent and the world, Australia an island continent and Canada having all the support from the US needed to undermine their French minority. Not everyone is going to be a linguist and there is only so much time for study. There are enough English people that can't even speak their own language properly.

Let these people keep their pride, if the roles were reversed you can bet it would be hard for you to turn your back on the language of your forefathers.

[stretch]

original post not worth a response.

[junajuna]

Quick question; why bother traveling if you have no respect for foreign cultures? Surely you can go home and complain about all of these things to sypathetic, closed minded buddies who all speak English and think the rest of the world should mold themselves in the image that suits you. Rather than spend time handing out leaflets and getting frustrated with cultural differences (I could be wrong here, but it seems we've gone beyond just language when the 'evil empire' was brought into the discussion) why not go somewhere else? Is it worth all the frustration?

There are times when I've been frustrated by aspects of Japan, and I completely understand the need to vent them. Your posts, however, are beyond minor frustrations, and animosity toward this country and it's attitudes seem to be affecting you very deeply. Why keep it up?

[TawtViet]

You are right junajuna that I have experienced things beyond minor frustration and I don't want to keep it up. I have always been a very gentle, kind and easy going person. Japan has been rough on me. I am not trying to change a culture as some say and I am not hate-filled as others falsely judge. I am not saying Japan is an evil empire now. I just see some universal absolutes of wrong that go beyond culture. Not admitting to being the most evil empire in the past is an absolute of wrong. Keeping an isolation attitude is also an absolute of wrong. To me culture must be within tolerable parameters for human thinking and behavior. Thinking and behavior beyond the parameters is beyond culture and becomes an absolute of wrong. I respect what is culture.
As I said again you all helped me chill a little on English, but not the isolationist "we Japanese." Gone are the days of colonization and a country forcing it's culture on another. So they don't need English here, but learning it would absolutely not change those things that really are culture. Being more connected to a world where English is so wide spread would only be a way to share the good, admirable and good things within the parameters of what is (their) culture.

[ironopolis]

I certainly agree that if you go to a foreign country it's reasonable to expect that you make some effort to learn its language and/or customs, culture etc. As a native English speaker myself I'd never feel comfortble anywhere trying to insist the locals wherever I was should be speaking my language.

However, whilst I don't have much sympathy for native English speakers in Japan who've made little effort to integrate and blame the Japanese for their difficulties, I have also come across quite a few non-native English speaking foreigners in Japan who've expressed extreme frustration and surprise at the poor standard of English here compared to what they expected (a) compared to their own country and (b) from a country with the kind of world status Japan has. I think they, from their point of view, have a much more valid argument.

In the time I've been here, I've had several visitors come to see me in Japan from other Asian countries (mostly Korean and Taiwanese but others too). In well over 80% of cases they said that they were questioned by immigration officials in Japanese, in spite of telling them that they could speak no Japanese. Many of them expressed amazement that of all people, immigration officials, could get such a job without being able to communicate effectively in English. This, I think, is a fair point.

Someone mentioned being too English-centric above. I agree with this and in Japan I'd have great respect for anyone I met whose English sucked but who was pretty good at another language - in fact I often think the Japanese would be better off giving people a choice of foreign langauges to learn in school - unfortunately I've met harldy any such people.

[JimDunlop2]

[Lister100]

Colonization

As with many words the dictionary is an unsubstantial source to discover all meanings and interpretations.

There are people that could explain this point better than I can but colonization here would be in the sense that we are exporting foreign language and culture to better serve multi-nationational corporations. If foreign culture is needed make it the US but its much more than that. It benefits all English speaking nations as there culture becomes mainstream.

On the BBC news Russian spies recently uncovered that certain NGO's (ex. Peace Corps) were spying and interfering in foreign countries on the behalf of American, British and certain middle eastern countries' interests. Exporting culture is an incredible way to assimilate people (neo-colonization) because you get them wanting to be like you rather than forcing them to be like you. If that means they start buying more Coke Cola, Tommy Hilfigger and McDonalds all the better right. The mere fact that many people here associate English teachers to movie stars and the USA (even if your not from there) says a lot. Japan is pretty resilient but there are other places that aren't.

I don't want a big screaming hairy over this one. I'll be the first to admit this explaination could use more body and if I cared enough or had the time I'd be happy to write a paper on it. For what its worth I don't believe we need a defined international language. Countries have been able to communicate for ages and it says a lot more if your interpreters speak the language of the country in question rather than some other foreign language. When the world spoke French it was usually by the aristocracy and those that served them making up about 3% of the population(and thats if all of them spoke it.) You could say that this time was also a form of colonization since by influencing the languages of foreign elite the French influenced the way they thought and ruled their countries. As a result you can trace many the great European artistic movements and political innovations to France at this time.

For what its worth I'm not an advocate of globalization or the dulling down of the world's flavour with the likes of one International language. I know there are a lot of different ways into this and my views are not necessarily right or wrong. If your for the Star Trek Federation all the power to you. I'll wait till the aliens arrive before I stir us all in the same pot. My views probably make me a hypocrite but I'm a mercenary and move with the benjamins baby. Hey, got to feed the monkey!

I should also add that being for one international language is very rational and logical. Imagine the troubles that would be avoided if we all thought through the same linguistic framework. It just seems very wasteful of other cultures developments. Don't you ever wonder how the Aztecs might have progressed if they were not cut down to size. On a smaller scale language is the same, wondering how another civilzation can think and evolve differently through their language. Some people study dead languages to get a better sense of themselves and new insights into the world. There's too much identity and wisdom in a language to let one language take over. Not that we have any say in the matter.
___________________________
Just added

The term I might have been looking for is Liberal Imperialist. I lifted this bit from the Toronto Star, but it seems to be close to what I was saying about English teachers.

Speaking about Canadians...
"But imperialists nonetheless in that term's core meaning, i.e., of a people out to make other people adopt their own ways.
The answer, I will argue, is Yes. We are far more imperialistic than we know or care to know about ourselves.
The descriptive term for this attitude, and of the national policy that flows from it, is "liberal imperialism." It was minted by British diplomat Robert Cooper who's had a lot of influence on Prime Minister Tony Blair and who, by coincidence, was in Toronto earlier this week to deliver a speech.
Liberal imperialists go about the world doing good to others � as they themselves define the good.
Most times, liberal imperialists use peaceable means, like foreign aid and education and politico-diplomatic pressure."

Its hard to keep up with the appropriate terms since they are constantly being re-invented.

[stillnosheep]

sendrigo (he used to have another name but ran away and changed it) is an idiot and knows less about spain (or japan) than I do about particle physics.

That's why it's called 'CELTA'; not 'foreign'; not 'other', just 'teaching to Adults'.

pps. there is no pps.

[TawtViet]

You are all very intelligent and I highly respect all of you even though some of you became quite angry with me. Since this posting I have met some Japanese people that DON'T have the attitude:
We-are-300-million-times-better-than-the-other-pathetic-human-beings-on-this-planet. We-don't-really-want-to-be-part-of-this-intenational-community. I recall a nasty comment from a Japanese man who was angry upon seeing me in a sauna hotel. He only saw me for a second and didn't know me from Adam. He simply spewed poison because I was not Japanese. Perhaps part of the reason for me handling out the cards was my personal fight and over-reaction against the nasty attitudes I sensed and heard about. For example, An extremely high percentage of Japanese people interviewed in Tokyo said that they longed to NEVER see a foriegn face their entire life. You're all right, I was wrong to hand out the cards.
I have been greatly comforted through my recent meeting of Japanese people who care about foriegners and have a kindly attitude toward the rest of the world. My heart has softened tremendously.

[Iwantmyrightsnow]

How long have you been in Japan? I think most of us have had similar experiences/frustrations and go thru different stages of how to deal with it.

[Hoser]

Since when are people obligated to speak english? There are over 1 billion Chinese and almost a billion Indian but how many people are hounding you to speak Chinese or Indian? Your post sounds a little presumptious to me. I WISH I could speak japanese half as well as a lot of Japanese can speak english.

[David W]

Nice effort there mate. Solid 8/10 on the trollometer. Well done.

[SolitaryThrush]

My two cents:
Read this article from a Korean paper, posted on the Korea forum.