Job Discussion Forums

[kimo]

Cheryl, sorry to intrude half way into your thread.

Thanks to those who replied to my post. I found your opinions worth reading.

[cafebleu]

I, too, find `Jap` an offensive word and would never use it and never have used it. Ever. However, to be fair to Sunpower there is a far more derogatory word to use if you want to be racist about the Japanese - it begins with `N`. I don`t think Sunpower would use that word.

Sherri - it is interesting to hear that you are married to a Japanese man and have a child. That is wonderful. What I would like to know is, how sensitive is your husband to the kinds of words Japanese people use thoughtlessly about westerners and the derogatory word that people such as Shintaro Ishihara have used openly to label Koreans?

That word is `Sangogukjin` and I have heard it used two times in Japan to discriminate against Koreans and other Asians. I told the person who said it (they were Japanese) to please never say that again in front of me. As for `Gaijin` - I think it is high time the Japanese realised that it is not their prerogative to use it, especially as they are mighty sensitive about themselves but are in the habit of labelling other countries` people so heedlessly.

[Lucy Snow]

Last summer I ran into a couple of Japanese who were visiting Budapest--they were trying to find a particular Japanese restaurant and had trouble reading the map in their guidebook.

After I gave them directions, we talked a bit and I asked them how they liked Budapest. Very much, but it was difficult to understand Hungarians' English and they didn't like Hungarian food very much and they kept getting lost. I said that it's not easy being a gaikokujin sometimes.

"We're not gaikokujin--we're Japanese!"

I debated whether or not to explain to them that once they leave Japan they become foreigners in whatever country they're visiting, but decided it would be useless.

[cheryl]

Kimo,

I don't consider it "intrusive" for you to give/share your opinion. It was this kind of dialogue that i wanted the thread to begin.

Cheryl

[Sherri]

cafebleu
I had never heard the word "sangokujin" before so I asked my husband about it. He said it was fairly common to use it before the war and no one thought much of it. The "san" part actually stands for 3, as in 3 non-Japanese Asian countries (he thinks refers to Korea, Taiwan(?) and China but is not so sure). After the war, it became the kind of word people don't or shouldn't use. Maybe like the "N" word in American history for African Americans? So my impression from what he said is that educated or more socially aware Japanese people would not use that word. He also mentioned Ishihara-san using that term (and other terms which I can't remember now) and how angry people got--including Japanese people. I also got quite a lesson on different derogatory terms used by Japanese to talk about Caucasion and other Asian people, most of them out-dated and all very offensive (according to him).

As for "gaijin" I actually don't have a problem with it. It means literally "outside person" or foreigner and doesn't refer to a specific nationality or race. Gaikokujin, is just more formal and usually used in legal documents.

I liked Lucy's story about the Japanese tourists in Budapest and can easily imagine it happening. I could also imagine American tourists abroad being amazed that they could be considered "foreigners" so I really don't think that the Japanese are the only nationality in the world who needs sensitivity training.

[cafebleu]

Sherri, thanks for your thoughtful and helpful reply. Your husband sounds like a thoughtful person, too. `Sangokujin` (I believe, from what I have heard and read) refers to `Third country` people - it`s like talking about the `Third World` but with racist intent, as a means of putting those people on the lowest rung.

By calling Koreans that word, the Japanese authorities and a number of Japanese people justified Japan`s invasion of Korea and the enslaving of Koreans, when they were taken from Korea to work in Japanese coalmines and other places as forced laborers. They were `Third Country` people, not fit to do anything but work as slaves for the Japanese.

[kimo]

[Sherri]

Kimo
You took my remarks competely out of context. All I meant to show is that Japanese are not the only nationality to consider themselves unique in the world--and therefore have a hard time conceiving that they could be "foreign" when outside Japan.

You wrote: "Are you in Japan to teach correct behavior as you define it? I just don't get it."

Where did I say or imply this? That is why you don't "get it".

[tjpnz2000]

Ahh...words. They do indeed have power.

I once had a conversation about what it is appropreate to refer to people as and the conclusion was this: it was a question of description versus definition.

If I describe someone as `tall` (deliberately using the least offensive term I can think of, substitute your own if you want. In the original the term was a colour). Then I am making no judgement about the person based on height. This is, of course, fine.

If I define someone as `tall` then I am making judgements about that persons character, personal hygene and so forth based on them being `tall`. This is, of course, bad.

The problem is that while I may be describing a person as `tall` you may think that I am defining them as `tall` because I say `over average height` or whatever. I should probably use the term with the least connotative association because you may get the wrong idea. However, you have a responsibilty seek clarification if you are unsure.

This gets even more difficult in a forum like this where you don't have spoken tone or facial expressions to help make your point and you only know the other people by there posts.

Amazing as this may sound the above was actually quite clear in my head.

I usually refere to Japanese people as Japanese (sometimes `nihonjins` and NEVER abbreviated `s` added to make a plural) and myself as `that gaijin`. I don't think this is offensive, am I wrong?

T

[kimo]

[Sherri]

You wrote: "Are you in Japan to teach correct behavior as you define it? I just don't get it." [/quote]

The way I see it is, is that you are still trying to get them to think the way you want them to think. That is what I don't get. --- That often, I believe and might some day conclude otherwise, is what the PC notion is all about.[/quote]

Kimo, I just read through all the posts here and I have not seen a single one that says or implies that "I am in Japan to teach correct behaviour as I define it"--by any of the posters.

When you say, "you are still trying to get them to think the way you want them to think", who are the "them" you refer to? Do you mean Japanese people or the other people on this forum? The point here I thought was to say whether or not we thought the term "jap" was offensive. The Japanese people close to me have made it clear that they do not like the term used, why should I continue to use it? Would you in the same circumstances?

I and many others here said that we don't use the term and gave reasons why. Speaking for myself, I am not trying to "teach" anyone correct behaviour, I am just giving my opinion and I think that is what this discussion is about.