Job Discussion Forums

[sheeba]

I have noted on this forum that some teachers like to pass all their students whilst others feel the need to fail individuals. I am self-debating whether I should fail certain students or not. Talking to a Chinese friend the other day (she is also a student but not mine) she said to me that if I fail the students it would not make any difference to the way that they work in the future. I know how the students and staff here all like to stick together and get everyone through the system so I don't completely validate her opinion on this.

Basically I've got some real lazy little buggers. They have turned up only for the last few lessons and have really started to kiss my ass so I pass them. To be fair some of those that have come to 1 or 2 lessons all semester have shown more effort in this little time than others who have sat through all the semester's classes.

The other FT who left last semester seemed to really enjoy failing students. I can't work out a rational reason to support failing certain types or not. I have always told my students that attendance is important. I am now considering Ability, Attitude and Effort into the equation.

I've seen comments such as - 'Pass them all -Your mark makes no difference ' etc but could somebody back that up with some evidence that my mark really makes no difference. My students tell me that only a few can gain scholarship awards here so competition for good marks surely is of great importance? They also have to pay RMB to retake the module if they fail. Some of these kids are poor. I would like to teach the lazy sods a lesson but will failing them help?

[sheeba]

Forgot to mention ! I teach an Oral English Class

[kev7161]

I have failed students and I have passed some with flying colors. If you are teaching an "oral English" class, then you can test them or you can just make little marks beside names throughout the course everytime they speak. If a student speaks clearly and does a decent job in word choice and proper grammar (such as verb tenses), then put a mark by their name. If they mumble incoherently or say, "sorry I don't know", then no mark. You can pre-determine how many marks in a week? month? semester? earns an "A", how many earns a "B", etc. That could be half their score; the other half could be determined by homework or written testing.

However, that didn't (doesn't) work for me, so I give plenty of written tests, vocab. tests, group presentation work (everyone in the group gets the same grade based upon the criteria I've set for each presentation) and, of course, individual achievements. What I've come to determine with my students is that, generally, those that have good speaking skills also have excellent writing skills. Some with little or choppy speaking skills, may excel at writing, and those with no spoken English skills (or none that they will show me in class), usually have no skills at all and get failing grades on tests.

The ones that fail are almost always the ones that obviously don't try and spend most of their time whispering to friends, trying to sneak texting on their mobile phone, sleep in class, miss classes frequently ("oh, he's ill . . . again."), and never, ever do workbook assignments or anything else I ask of them. I never think twice about failing them. I've seen definite improvement in many of my students over the course of the last few months, but I've also seen some go in the opposite direction.

In the long run, my grade probably means little to nothing at all in the grand scheme of things and I can imagine an "F" from me undoubtedly gets changed to a "C" on their report cards (or whatever it is they show mama and baba here).

[Songbird]

I teach 7 writing classes and I'm not afraid to fail students if I have to. I am the very first foreigner to teach this course here and IMO up til now the Chinese have done an awful job of it. They only ever give 1 exam at the end of the semester and don't bother to keep track of students progress (or attendance!), so this semester has been a real shock to the students and the college at large. I know writing is very hard (in English) but I feel I have tried the best I can given the severe lack of resources trying to improve their English.

I held an exam last week and have so far marked 5 classes. At least half have failed, according to my criteria (Task achievement, coherence, vocabulary & sentence structure and the summary they were supposed to do), but they at least get 1 final chance in the last exam. The Dean is planning a meeting with the FT's any day and he will get a severe shock when he sees the results just how bad the quality of education is here. So, yeah, I'm not afraid of failing students if I have to, I try and be as fair as I can, but at the end of the day.....

[tarzaninchina]

The first thing I try to do is guage what level I'll be marking at. That's one thing I hear little about on this forum concerning this topic....

I do rate them on their ability and all that jazz (no need to repeat). As for impact....

At my college, students who are in their last year always pass, although they do try to save face of having to pay. The college does take care of this, but they may give the foreign teacher a chance and ask them to pass them all.

As for other classes, they (both students and admin) don't like it when too many students fail, so there is a quota. Also, if a student fails more than three times, they're out.

With respect to students, they do try at least here. Also, they often ask how many CAN pass.

Where they apply face to here in the Chinese education has me so floored, I find myself unable to complete most of my thoughts here or this message!

[Talkdoc]

...

[beck's]

I take attendance using a seating plan. I try to make sure that all of the students participate in my classes. I attempt to design activities that let them all practice their oral skills. I try to get across that speaking English is like playing basketball. They must "play" English to learn it.

Each student is allowed five leaves. When a student misses three classes, I tell them how important it is to be in attendance, how important it is to play English. When they miss five classes, I ask the monitor to talk to them, in Chinese, about the importance of attendance and the consequences of absence. If they miss a sixth class they fail. So far, and I am only here for one year, I have only failed one student and that is because he missed five classes.

[beck's]

Sorry, six classes.

[lumberjackej]

I plan to fail at least one third of the students in my oral classes.

Not because of any quota, but simply due to arithmetic.

I teach oral English here. Every two or three weeks I assign a simple project: sometimes they are group dialogues to which I give a simple grade out of 10 or 20 points, depending on dialogue length, effort put into the dialogue. I also have simple quizzes, have my students translate menus into English, etc etc. For the most part my main criteria for a passing grade is effort, as my assignments and quizzes are often 'pop' quizzes, they are often unannounced. Basically, if you come to class almost every week and do a respectable amount of work, a student will get a very high mark in my class.

Yet some students' scores are ridiculously low. Perhaps they don't understand that the grades I posted over the mid-term will be their final grades.

Final score will be out of 100 points.

So far the projects total to 70 points.

With the risk of being verbose, here is a sampling of the scores in one of my classes. Total Score is listed under 'Updated' on the right:

Emo Quiz Menus Drawrings Shop Dial Fam Dial Updated

10 pts 10 pts 10 pts 20 pts 20 pts x/70 pts

8 10 18 15 51/70
0/50
8 20 15 43/70
5 10 15 30/70
8 8/70
10 6 18 10 44/70
9 5 8 15 37/70
8 8/70
5 5 18 15 43/70
6 15 6 18 10 55/70
0 5 5 18 15 43/70


With 30 points to go.

Most of the students (I say most) are not apathetic or anything like that, perhaps they just don't understand that they need to complete my assignments, and that I spent them to follow my directions and turn in quality work. I'm planning on giving them one chance for extra credit (10 points), but that's it. I'm just waiting for the fallout when everyone realizes that these grades have some significance, I'll probably receive lots of pleas and gifts, which will be promptly sent to the dumpster. In any case, if I don't impose a reasonable set of academic standards on my students, who will? This is my feeling.

[beck's]

I think it's important to try to imagine a situation in which we were trying to learn another language. For my part, I don't think that I would learn another language effectively if I was worried about marks, final grades and failure. I think that I would learn the most if all risk were removed.

In oral Engish, I think that it is most important that we remove all risk of failure, except failure through lack of attendance. Our students should feel comfortable making mistakes, as many mistakes as they want. English is a great language in that the speaker can literally masacre it and still communicate.

I tell my students that if they are in class they will be successful. Oral English should be seen as play. Not everyone can be a Maurice Richard (famous Canadian hockey player) but everyone can play the game.

It is false to compare oral English with engineering or surgery. Certainly, in those fields, standards are important. For most of our students, learning English is a cultural experience which should not be confused with knowledge in which life and limb are at stake.

[Brian Caulfield]

My policy in Korea was to pass them if I knew who they were . Let's face it there are some poor Chinese English teachers out there and it is not always the Chinese student's fault for not liking or understanding English . Also by failing them you are just passing a poor student on to someone else . The important thing is to keep the curve of your class correct . In Korea 80% is considered average which is much higher than North America . We are not dealing in medicine . The grade you give them doesn't mean much even if they go to North America for graduate work , the schools there know the system here and make them take oral interviews before admitting them.
Since being in China I have met so many Chinese university students who complain about the unfriendly cruel foreigner who teaches them English . And like Korea I suspect most of these teachers have no idea about how difficult it is to learn a foreign language . Most of the teachers I worked with never bothered or tried to learn the language of their students .
English is an art not a science so what difference does it make . Chinese students like Korean , Japanese and Taiwanese work hard in high school and come to university to play . Don't take it too seriously. Schools here work on the complaint system . If there are no complaints then you are a good teacher . I was voted the most popular teacher at my last university job in Korea . So you give someone a D or a C who cares ? It takes ten years to learn a language . What can you do in three months ?

[Roger]

Well, the real question is not whether we should fail all students - clearly, the logical answer is we should fail those who deserve it.

The real question we should debate is: why do we have to put OUR OWN students through an exam under ourselves?
I find this unprofessional and subjective, and as many CHinese teachers inform me, you have to maintain an incestuous relationship with your students because in the final count they have more clout over you than you over them.
In a genuinely education-orientated school you would have to bring student's up to certain abilities and tasks, and someone else would test their abilities. These tests and exams ought to be standardised, unform and objective.
That's what I did in an international school in HK, and that's what I am missing in the mainland.

[smalldog]

For me, failing students has had two noticeable benefits. For a minority of students, it helps them rethink their attitudes to learning and life in general. More significantly, it gives me a reputation as a 'strict teacher' which makes students take my classes more seriously. This is especially important if the students are used to foreign teachers of the "let's just have fun, I'll pass you all" variety.

My school doesn't mind me failing students--it means they get to charge retake fees. I usually fail about 5%.

[kev7161]

[checkmate]

In my previous school I had similar problems. Failing students. so what I did was change the system.
My uni students had become dispondent for many reasons so what I did was internal assessment.
I used their progress through the term to gauge a more realistic idea of their allround ability.
The assessment was based on attendance, work completion through the term, and progress.
This then gave them a progressive score prior to their term exams but I gave them 3 additional exams each term to prepare them for finals.
Thier progressive assessment score was added to their final exam score which got most of them over the top. I still failed some students but I told the school not to charge them and I re taught them for free. Thats what the charges are for. To pay the teacher.
Mid way through the next term 90% of the failed students passed their second exam and the school upgraded the rest.
In this case everybody was happy. The school. The students and me