Job Discussion Forums

[Le Snak]

The funny thing is that it has never happened to me (in the western world) before - Discrimmination. I was born in Vietnam but have lived my whole life in Australia.

Yesterday, I was sitting in front of HR in this new English School (opened by Americans/Australians) in down town HCMC. I had my resume in hand and all excited about securing a teaching position. Then the bomb came.

The young lady said that they would only offer me a (local position)
because of my asian apperance. She said 'how can I introduce you as a foriegn teacher to the student's when you look asian'.... I couldn't believe it. Despite my education and qualifications, because of my skin colour, I was judged and deemed unsuitable.

I had to keep my composure and walked out there quitely, but I really felt sad that it had come to this in HCMC.

It really goes to show that $$$ not education was the main concern at this school.

Has this happened to anyone else?.

[Blade]

[jojoni]

Hello Le Snak

I have given up looking for a teaching job in this city/ country. My first month here I was like you all excited, went through about 6 schools and all gave me the same look and results. Oh, yeah, one school ( Hoi Viet My) told me they will only hired me as a local Vietnamese teacher. I walked right out. And that was it. NO MORE LOOKING FOR A JOB!

[Mr Wind-up Bird]

Schools here are totally student-driven, as it's the students who pay everyone's wages. If students turn up expecting a white face & see someone who looks Vietnamese, they're going to be surprised and will probably go home & tell their parents, who've paid for them to be taught by a native speaker, that their teacher is in fact Vietnamese. Their parents will get the hump and complain to the school, and maybe even take their business elsewhere.

Obviously it's completely wrong but I don't think the schools are being racist here, just realistic. Some of them are probably as annoyed as you are, at having to pass up the chance to employ good teachers simply because their client base expects white faces in the classroom.

[Le Snak]

So, is it fair to say that the prejudicies that a Viet Kieu teacher faces, are bought about by the Vietnamese population themselves?..

I can see valid points in requiring professional and qualified teachers. It's important for institutions to keep up the standards and to maintain reputations.

If a vietnamese person on the street were injured in a car accident, and a darker skin doctor came to their aid. Would they think 'this guy might not be as qualified as a caucasian looking doctor'?......

It verges on stupidity. You get the impression that education doesn't really play much into their minds rather, the false pretence of being 'Western educated'.

This will blow up in their faces, as many Vietnamese who attend these English schools, who attend Universities, might one day travel abroad and might seek employment. What if jobs were denied to them because of their orgins or apperance?

It is really shameful of Vietnamese people to behave in this way, especially in this day and age. You would've expected better from a country that fought so hard for it's freedom.

This is were and why undeveloped countries struggle to come of age.

It's not called reality, it's called ignorance.

[Mr Wind-up Bird]

Like I said, it is stupid and it is wrong. However, put yourself in the place of the school - if they think that employing Viet Kieu teachers is going to damage their business/reputation, should they still go ahead & hire them or should they play safe & hire a Brit/Australian? What would you do?

[Snaff]

[junkmail]

Hey Le Snak, I can fix you up with a job in Korea if you've got a degree. It aint SE Asia but you can you make money as a native speaker.

Sad to hear what you had to say.

[Gluestick]

Thailand is kinda the same way though. Becuase I'm Asian, the students always have this look of disbelief when I enter the room. That stops though and is usually replaced with requests for me to speak more slowly after the first minute or so. My favorite is when they say, "But you look like Asian..." That's cuz I am Asian, you idiots!

I lucked out since I actually meet all the necessary requirements to teach in Thailand. I also met a cool head teacher. There are other Asians that are teaching at my place that are paid less though becuase they either don't have all the necessary requirements or were born in the Phillipines.

Thanks for the 411 though. I was actually thinking of eventually hitting up Vietnam to teach up until now. I thought it would be cool to be able to teach English and speak Vietnamese with the students. Now that idea is shot.
MOD EDIT

[Le Snak]

The whole business that these schools are in, is suppose to be EDUCATION. So these schools need to go out, and take a stand, educate their pupils, their clients.

Schools can't sit there idle, and bow to popularity contests, or succumb to ignorant and bias views/attitudes. If they do, they go against the core principle of the concept of EDUCATION.

People don't go out, make sacrifices, put themselves through Uni to be confronted with this.

The general asian population, through these institutions need to be informed and educated, that the quality of the teaching far outweighs the apperance of an individual.

I believe that if these schools took a firmer stance, used initiative and backed education, then this topic would be less prevelant.

This reality is ignorance....[/quote]

[smo]

This news really saddens me. Being an (older) VQ, this is my - warning: very longwinded, somewhat biased and you might even say bigoted - 2 dong:

- I remember my French elementary school on what is now Tran Dinh Xu on District 1, the whole school was run by a family whose sons and daughters had gone to France for their education and returned home to teach. None had white faces, of course, but their manners and �comportement� were unmistakably French - for whatever passed for colonial French at the time - even the cologne the men teachers wore. We were all happy with the teachers and their parents, the director and directress (who acted as the grand-mother hen, we called her �Tata�/auntie). I went on to earn a Alliance Francaise de Paris� Diploma � with honorable mention I might add - at the Centre Culturel on Hai ba Trung where again, one hardly saw a white face and whatever white faces that showed up there, they usually did not teach. Later when I went to Europe, many times people expressed their astonishment at my French when they found out that I came from VN.

- Around high-school, at Hoi Viet My � yes, it already started out in my days by, roughly speaking, the alliance between the GIs contingent and the Education department -again I did not have a white-faced teacher. There was one dark-skinned we did not dare to ask, who for that matter could have come from Guam or the Philippines or Nha Trang , but his accent was definitely better than, say, Lyndon Johnson�s.

Cut to Bangkok 2004, where I earned my CELTA last year. There was one British girl in my class, quite attractive, let�s call her Linda, who, like me, had no previous teaching experience whatsoever. She was nervous, so she kind ratched up her speech which was already badly chopped up by her accent. The �guinea-pig� students whom we trained on couldn�t wait to tell me after class: �We can�t understand her. You speak fast too, but we understand you no problems.�

Toward the end of the course, we went to British Council across the street to sit in some classes. The one I audited had a Scottish teacher. Sweet demeanor, soft-spoken, except that she spoke with such a sing-song voice that I couldn�t stop thinking, my God, have pity on the students, how anyone in their right mind would employ this woman for a language class? But there she was. In the western world, I guess she would have no problem getting a job at a child-care center, or a kindergarten; beyond that I�m not so sure.

There was another fellow, let�s call him David, from Oregon. Fresh out of college, away from home for the first time. He proposed to the girl who worked at the school cafeteria. In class, he was wildly enthusiastic, rather the emotional sort. Maybe he would be good for the Peace Corps or something, I don�t know. His lesson plans were often erratic, his spelling hopeless (�we went to a bizarre to buy some rugs�), however the CELTA tutors adored him. Later on he informed us that he got a plum job in South Korea, one grand a month, all living expenses paid. The only extra thing they asked him to teach was one Bible class a week. The hands of the Lord are surely at work here!

At the end of the story, Linda traveled up and down Thailand, landing teaching gigs everywhere. Those color faced, such as I of California, Jade of Singapore �whom I felt would be a terrific teacher given the chance - Andrew of New Delhi, etc. we all packed and returned home without any job prospects after pounding the pavement for the whole month of September. Jade later wrote me that even in her hometown she could not get any work. I hope it worked out better for Andrew.

Cut to HCMC 2005. As for me, through family connection here I�m waiting for a long-promised interview with the dean of a high school in town. According to my contact, who is an English teacher there, they wanted a VQ so that the staff could just speak plainVietnamese to him/her, while he/she speaks �native� English to the students. Kind of the best of both worlds I guess. The job is to take full charge of their overdue Conservational English course for the whole school starting this summer. The English teacher herself got paid around 3 dollars per hour, but she assured me, though she couldn�t be specific, that my remuneration would be way more that that: �All the money the parents pay for this special course will go to your salary!�

smo

[lexpat]

This doesn't surprise me one bit. I've taught a variety of places- Europe, Thailand, Cambodia, the States, and now Hanoi for a year. This place is...different. I'm sure race is a big factor here in hiring, as is age and appearance. Teaching ability, as suggested by a stint at a well known school, is far less esteemed here than in any of the other places I've been. The 'top' language schools know this and will hire a newly certified twenty something with a fresh Celta and a fresh face with no experience rather than an experienced teacher. That's just the way it goes here. Very different from Thailand, which I know well.

I think it has something to do with the general sense that Vietnamese teachers are more than adequate for teaching grammar and usage and that natives are basically there for 'exposure to native speaking' at best and as a marketing tool at worst. Also, I think the strait-laced nature of society here means a lot of the desire for social contact with Westerners is satisfied by having cute backpacker age teachers. In Thailand, if you want a boyfriend you head to Kao Sarn Road! They prefer their teachers experienced.

I've survived as a business language specialist teaching specialty courses and have done ok. But one glance at my dob was enough, I suspect, to disqualify me from the Language Link, Appollo, ACET, BC scene. Also, I had a friend from Cali who dropped out of the Cert program at Language Link in part because he was 47and realized there were no teachers at the school over 40.

IMHO, Vietnam is light years behind Thailand in this regard. In fact, I think Thailand is starting to wise up to how good a lot of the fairly low paid Filipino and Indian teachers are and will start hiring them more often.

[Cyan]

[spycatcher reincarnated]

There is obviously discrimination here and it isn't just based on Race. It is very difficult for a disabled person to become a teacher.

Here is some food for thought on remuneration.

Many schools have badly thought out remuneration policies and consequently the lack of ability to explain them. They often compartmentalize people in to boxes that are ill-conceived and just plain do not work (Vietnamese, Asian, Westerner).

E.g. If one changes their nationality tomorrow one shouldn�t fall out of one box and move in to another and thus have one�s remuneration reduced as a direct consequence.

Throughout this posting when I an using the word "remuneration" I am really referring to "cost of employment" (There is a subtle difference here because if employers are paying net salaries and a Vietnamese national earns the same as a foreigner the employers will have to pay a lot more personal income tax and other taxes, for a Vietnamese employee.

I believe remuneration should be commensurate with the required competencies of the employer, and swings in supply and demand, which in turn affect market rates.

For the purpose of this example I have not included supply and demand as I feel it may complicate the issue too much.

Below is just an example and I am not saying that these are my beliefs or that the marks I have given are correct/standard in any way.

Required teacher competencies:

1) English language ability
2) Ability to retain students
3) Having the right image for the school
4) Team player
5) Commitment
6) Ability to speak students� native language

One could definitely argue that 2 and 3 above are affected by one's appearance.

Who fits these criteria?

Scale is from 1 to 5
1 = excellent fit with criteria 5= very low fit with criteria
Teacher type..................................................Caucasian NES ................. Non Caucasian NES................. Non NES
1) English language ability .....................................1.................................... 1........................................ 4
2) Ability to retain students ..................................1.................................... 3........................................ 4
3) Having the right image for the school ...............1.................................... 4........................................ 5
4) Team player .........................................................3.................................... 2........................................ 1
5) Commitment .........................................................3.................................... 2........................................ 1
6) Ability to speak students� native language .........5.................................... 5.................... ....................1
Total score ...........................................................13................................... 17........................................ 16

Hmm. Doesn't look as if this table came out too well.

Value to the school, in order:
1) Caucasian Native English speaker
2) Non native speaker
3) Non Caucasian Native English Speaker

I quite frankly doubt many of the ESL schools in Vietnam have ever consciously considered an approach such as the one above.

It should be noted that in certain management training in Vietnam now, Vietnamese are being paid higher salaries than foreigners because these courses are being conducted in Vietnamese and there are very few people, of any ethnicity, that have the two main required competencies to conduct them: Vietnamese language, the knowledge and ability to deliver the course.

[Snaff]