Job Discussion Forums

[dmb]

Quite often in Turkey I come across people(usually taxi drivers) and when they realise that you are a foreigner they just refuse to understand you even if you are fairly fluent in the language. Does this happen in other countries.

[31]

[dmb]

They get even more confused when I say I am from Scotland, they think it is somewhere near Sweden. I then mention Cesur kalp(Braveheart) and Mel Gibson then we are the best of buddies.

[31]

[dmb]

I have had a few taxi drivers like that. But that is a stereotype. Some are reasonable. I get about 6 taxis a day and don't usually have problems. asking for a receipt is another thing though. What about taxi drivers in other countries?

[thelmadatter]

I can somewhat sympathize with Johnny's problem with folks not wanting to speak German with him. Interestingly enough, I didn't have problems when I lived in Augsburg (1988-1992). Maybe that was because there was a large military presence in the area. Yup, I was a military spouse at the time and using German seemed to have a very positive effect on the locals. At least I showed I wasn't one of those "ugly Americans" (and sheesh, some military folks were quite ugly when it came to dealing with locals ... I attribute that to lack of education/multicultural experience for many. Gave the rest of us a bad name.) On a more neutral note, anyone who wanted to practice English had plenty of opportunities, so I didnt run into people desperate to practice English. I did get people who wanted to speak English with me from time to time but they were polite about it, usually by asking me first. I wonder if things have changed since the US has closed so many bases in Germany. The American presence in southern Germany is less than half of what it used to be.

Perhaps the need to show superiority actually demonstrates a feeling of insecurity?

Ive had a similar experience/feeling of people insisting on speaking English to me to "exclude" me from their world. However, that happened in the good ol' USA... Arizona to be specific. I lived there 11 years before coming here to Mexico. This was southern Arizona, the border area. Many native Spanish speakers I met were uncomfortable to downright threatened by a "gringa" that wanted to speak Spanish, insisting instead to respond in English even IF I asked them to speak Spanish. I attribute it to a certain amount of insecurity of identity on their part. I even did a paper about it, finding sources that outright claimed that "Anglos" speaking Spanish somehow denigrated the language. The first person who was willing to converse with me in Spanish was a Chilean in the States to study English for 6 months. To me, he seemed more secure in who he was and seeing that I really needed someone to practice with, I became the person to ask cultural, rather than linguistic questions to. Thanks to him, I came to Mexico with much better Spanish than I would have had otherwise!

Here in central Mexico, it seems to me that I dont have this problem either. True, many dont speak enough English to try it out (but with those who do and want to practice, we usually come to some kind of arrangement - usually by alternating language back and forth (Spanish for a while/English for a while). If anything, sometimes folks get "mad" at me for not correcting them, but I explain how and what I correct, if anything. (to me the point is getting comfortable and fluent in the language when conversing, not to have a grammar lesson). But I digress. It seems to me here, that any insecurity people have vis-a-vis a native English-speaker in Spanish, is far less. After all, I am in THEIR territory, no question about it. People are pleasantly surprised that I speak Spanish well, esp. since I am a "norteamericana." The notion that my speaking Spanish somehow threatens their identity simply doesnt exist.

Making fun of accent. Yeah, I get this a lot from everyone including friends and students. With my friends, its no problem ... its just friendly teasing and heck, for effect I put on an exaggerated gringo accent sometimes. I dont do it back for anyone's accent in English because 1) I cant imitate it right (except for the occasional bad Speedy Gonzalez joke) and 2) they (especially my students!) WOULD be more sensitive to me imitating them. Is #2 fair? No. But I hate politically correct speeches, so I wont subject them to it. I also realize that many people here in central Mexico are not accostumed to hearing Spanish with a foreign accent (I have to admit that it took me a while to get used to hearing my ex-officemate's Chinese-accented Spanish) whereas many (dare I say "most"?) native English speakers are used to hearing English with an accent. Many of my Mexican students (and the English teachers too) are very concerned about their accent in English. I keep explaining that they should not be concerned because we native speakers ARE used to accents, and Ive yet to meet a Mexican student whose accent prevented understanding. Also, learning pronunciation is very time-consuming and does little for most students (Im proof of this! I know what my tongue should do, but it often doesnt want to cooperate ).

I cant say I never get offended by any of this, so I dont think it is fair simply to say to Johnny that he should simply change his attitude. Many people ARE insensitive to us when we are making ourselves vulnerable by speaking their language. It is not right. But on the other hand, leaving disgusted won't change anything. Those of us native English speakers who can speak the native speakers are valuable in breaking these stereotypes, even if all we do is be there, speaking the language.

[Justin Trullinger]

Okay, Okay, it's annoying. But it's part of living abroad. At the end of the day, people can be rude. But what are you gonna do? No matter what you think is "correct," you don't have the right to decide what language other people should speak for them. Maybe the poster who suggested asking them why is on track. Usually they don't mean to be rude.

About "humilliation." Why is it humilliating to you for someone to speak English? Most of us on this board teach English, so I guess we have to expect it to catch on a bit, no?

One interesting technique is to learn local languages and dialects. When I was in Barcelona, I got the rude "what?!" response from soooo many shopkeepers, but only when I was speaking Spanish. Catalan? Suddenly get a lot of smiles. (Even though my Spanish is MUCH better than my Catalan.)

I have a friend is Stuttgard who has been learning Schw�bish (Sic, probably) with the same results.

Regards,
Justin

[JZer]

[thelmadatter]

Justin,

Its not their speaking English that is "humilliating," (I personally would use the word "offensive") but rather the rejection of our use of their language simply because we are English-speaking/American/Anglo. (I add'American/Ango' because Im speaking from my own experience.) As I stated before, I don't have a problem with people who simply want to practice English with me. Its those people who somehow feel that I dont have the right to speak anything but English. Its like slamming the door in my face after I try to be polite and respectful.

[moonraven]

Did it ever occur to any of you that sometimes people try to make foreigners feel at home by speaking to them in what they have guessed to be their native language? Some do.

It doesn't help to run around the world with a chip on one's shoulder.

When I am in South America, everybody wants to speak with me in Spanish to hear what a Mexican accent sounds like.

Different strokes....

[JonnytheMann]

There is a major difference between the Latin mentality (French, Italians, Latin Americans, Spaniards, etc.) and the Germanic mentality (Dutch, German, Scandinavian, etc.). Unless you specifically speak a Germanic language, I don't think you can understand where we're coming from. I speak Spanish fluently, and I was never humiliated by Spanish speakers who switched to English. They just do it in such a kind-hearted manner. If any Spanish-speaker tries out English with you, it always seems to be a genuine desire to practice English.

Germanic people on the other hand are *extremely* intellectually competitive. When many of them switch to English, it is not about practicing or making the foreigner feel more comfortable by speaking his language, it is about demonstrating his intellectual superiority. Obviously, this is not always the case, but trust me, it is very, very common.

If you don't speak a Germanic language (besides English, of course), then you probably can't relate to this feeling of humiliation. So many people will answer back in such a jaded, smug English, as if to say, "Why do you even bother to speak German to me? It's an insult to my cosmopolitan, urbane existance that you don't address me in English."

Moonraven said: Did it ever occur to any of you that sometimes people try to make foreigners feel at home by speaking to them in what they have guessed to be their native language? It doesn't help to run around the world with a chip on one's shoulder.

I don't travel the world with a chip on my shoulder. I went to Germany with the most open mind and a incredible passion for the German language. I remember multiple times when I would be hanging out with Eastern Europeans (whose German was way better than their English), and then a German would come along, and we'd all be speaking German, everything would be great. The German would assume I was some type of continental European because of my unidentifiable accent. When it would somehow finally come up in the conversation that I was an Anglophone, I could see the predictable wheels turning in the German's head. "Must. Prove. Superiority. Must. Speak. English." He'd immediately switch to English when addressing me and the rest of the Eastern Europeans, who often couldn't understand. I can't tell you how many times things like that happened. It had *nothing* to do with making me feel more comfortable. Nothing to do with practicing English. Everything to do with excluding me and demonstrating that I was intellectually inferior.

At my university back in Nashville, we had a German coffee hour every Wednesday where you could speak German with the German professors and students. Needless to say, if you really wanted to speak German, you had to talk with the American professors as the German professors would constantly try to force you back into English speaking. I remember one German professor that I loved would literally never speak German to me even when I would go up to her after class and speak German. Argh!

Also, let me further clarify that my generalizations about Germans are actually about univeristy students. Children and older adults were a delight, and I was never made to feel intellectually inferior by them. My flatmates on the other hand ...

Needless to say, I now love Spanish way more. Hopefully, I will be in Argentina by Sept. 1st.

[moonraven]

I think you are overly sensitive. To me, that translates as having a chip on one's shoulder. Maybe you don't have one, but plenty of folks do.

[Justin Trullinger]

And if you really think that latin language speakers can't be just as horrible about this, check out Catalunya. (But then, they call them the Germans of Spain.)

Regards,
Justin

PS Who ever said I don't speak a germanic language?

[JonnytheMann]

[dyak]

I'd say Michael was Californian...

As for communication as competition, surely the point has been somewhat missed. If i encounter this, i simply ask the person to teach me what they know. Competition over. Look on face priceless.