Job Discussion Forums

[Bebsi]

Yes, Cleopatra, that is very ture. Much of the socialising is done on desert/beach picnics, at special banqueting halls and gardens, and in restaurants and cafes. I know of Saudi men who don't even invite their brothers to their homes much! It is, essentially, because of the privacy factor and the situation vis-a-vis women.

Many Saudis DO entertain male friends/relatives, including at home however, but only when space and layout allows this. As I have said in my previous posting, I have been to many Saudi homes.

The point here, is that the failure of expats to get invited literally into homes has as much, and probably more, to do with practical considerations of privacy and space as with any hostility or inhospitality towards westerners.

I will revert to the other point in my earlier posting: when a westerner fails to get invited GENERALLY to socialise with Saudis, it may be because of a lack of effort on his part, or because the saudis in question see westerners as being hostile to them. It certainly does require an effort to get accepted by them. Many westerners don't want to, and therefore do not see such an effort as useful, which is fair enough too. IMO, tho, they are indeed missing out on an enriching and most interesting cultural experience. [/i]

[scot47]

It is unlikely that you will get many ivitations to a dinner party back home with the wives BUT Saudi men do socialise with each other. I have often been invited by groups of colleagues/students to go and eat together with them.

Saudis do not mix family and friends : two separate spheres.

[veiledsentiments]

I think that this can be generalized to the whole Gulf. With their tribal and family obligations, socializing outside of the these two groups is not normally done. I felt that they really do not have the concept of 'friendship' outside of the group that we have... one rarely goes beyond being an acquaintance with them. The most we can get are glimpses into their culture and daily life... often misunderstood and distorted by our expectations.

Because the men are more out in the public sphere... working or relaxing in coffee shops or playing football, male teachers do have more chance to meet informally with local men. But, it is very difficult for a woman teacher to socialize with other women. This may change as more women are breaking into the workforce, but they still have so many family obligations that I don't see much chance of it changing in the short term.

VS

[Bebsi]

It is indeed very true that Saudis tend to socialise within certain confines: namely Family and the "Tribe" (usually an extended form of the former). Outside of those two spheres, they socialise on a less regular and slightly more formal basis with colleagues, teachers, and general acquaintances. Gtteing very close to them is difficult for this reason.

However, this does not detract in any way from their generosity and warmth as hosts. Their loyalty is also beyond question, once you have been accepted as a friend. They will stand by you in any situation, and protect you as one of the tribe.

[EnglishBrian]

Not pertaining to Saudi, but this discussion reminded me of a female colleague in Doha whose eyes used to light up every time she recounted being invited to the wedding of a Qatari student of hers. The way she described the whole experience and the way she was accepted in such a friendly way at this 'party' really opened my eyes to a people who can seem very 'closed' when you just know them in class.

[scot47]

Back in 1970 when I was first in KSA one of my students pointed out that Arab students did not have "friends" like their agemates in Britain. He was right, and in retrospect this yound student had more insight into the comparisons beween KSA and UK than most of my colleagues !

Most socialising is still within the confines of the extended family. They do not socialise with outsidres so why should they socialise with a "khawadja" ?

[Gerund]

I'll be frank--the reason I would never socialise with any Saudis is that at work I am the recipient of continual homosexual flirting from my students, who find me attractive, and I would not feel comfortable or safe with them in a social situation.

I'm sure a lot of male teachers in Saudi Arabia can relate to this but would hesitate to say it in Dave's for fear of being labeled a homophobe and having the thought police yank the post. I'm not a homophobe and this post should be allowed to stay because this is an important and serious comment about a very real and difficult aspect of life in KSA for male expats.

On the other hand, in my many years in KSA, I've found the male teachers who do enjoy socialising with their male students are the ones who are receptive to the sort of flirting I decribe above.

[Bebsi]

[Gerund]

Your response was boring and predictable. Because I get tired of men everyday winking at me, blowing me kisses and telling me I�m beautiful that makes me a homophobe? I hardly think so. What it makes me is normal. Something like that happening once in a while isn�t anything I would worry about, but all the time, come on?

Any straight guy would get fed up with it. And who said anything about being gay? These guys aren�t any more gay than sexually frustrated men in prisons who resort to homosexual behavior. Anyone who has any experience in KSA, which you apparently do not, knows that the reason for the rampant homosexual behavior there is not that the majority of Saudi men are gay but that they live in an extremely repressive society which bars ALL contact with females until they are married.

[veiledsentiments]

errr... guys? You have both made some valid observations, but I fear if you turn this into some sort of cultural or personal debate, the thread will just get pulled.

VS

PS: Hey Bebsi... are you Cecil the moderator?

[dmb]

I know this is the Saudi forum and my experience was in Qatar but same same. My invites were usually along the lines of 'teacher.. teacher... let's go desert' I never did take them up on it.

[Kaspar Hauser]

When I was in KSA I twice had Saudi men try to fondle me and once a student exposed himself to me. On another occasion I made the mistake of showing my class a picture of my six-year-old son. They started to salivate, kiss the picture and comment on his shapely physique.

Bebsi�s either got his head in the sand or he�s jealous that his students don�t think he�s as handsome as Gerund�s do. His denial of the obvious--any straight guy with any experience in KSA knows what Gerund is talking about--and his defense of negative aspects of Saudi culture are typical of the type of teachers we used to call �collaborators� when I was in KSA. He�s probably too young to remember �Stockholm syndrome,� but it�s something you find among a certain type of teacher in KSA. They identify with their captors.

After a few more years in KSA, Bebsi may wake up and burn out. His childish writing style and frequent use of silly emoticons make me think he�s young, naive and inexperienced. He�ll learn.

[Bebsi]

I will respond to Gerund first.