Job Discussion Forums

Salam · Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:17 am Post subject:

Okay I think a few clarifications need to be made regarding Islam (and the cultural conventions adopted by many countries which are NOT Islam).

1. Having more than one wife.

a) You're first wife does NOT have to give her consent for you to marry another, but going against her wishes is suitable grounds for her to file for a divorce (leaving you with only one wife again).

b) You do not have to give them "equal love and gifts". Indeed the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did not love all of his wives equally at all and this is well documented. You must give them equal "justice". That means that you cannot treat one very well and the other very poorly. You cannot always side with one wife when she is clearly in the wrong etc.

c) As for your responsibilities as a Muslim to have even one wife is follows: They must be fed when you have food, clothed when you have clothes and sheltered when you have shelter. It is also said that if you cannot be fair to more than one wife, then you should only have one.

2. Converting to Islam for marriage.

This is "strictly" forbidden. No one can come to Islam except by their own choice, and no one can be held in Islam against their choice. Allah (swt) has decreed who is on the big list of who goes upstairs and who goes down on the Day of Judgement. This list is unknown to man. Just because you were born a Muslim does not guarantee anything. So to force someone to convert for no other reason than marriage is considered a major sin for both parties (implies that you know better than Allah(swt) who will be a Muslim).

3. Striking your wife.

This is a very heavily monitored subject and something which is often misread or outright used wrong as an excuse (may Allah punish those who do so). Yes indeed it is true that the man has the right to strike his wife (a strike, not a bashing) if it is to save her and their family. The example given in the text is that if your wife is doing something that is unislamic and will lead the family away from Islam then she should be cautioned, and again more sternly. Then and ONLY then, for the spiritual safety of himself, his wife and his children is a husband allowed to strike his wife (essentially knock some sense into her when her own ignornace and selfishness is destructrive to the family). Again this is a single strike, not a bashing, not a kicking, and not designed to cause any form of injury.

An non-islamic example of this is when someone is in hysteria and acting in ways that are dangerous to themselves and others. Often you will see someone reason with them - fail, shake them - fail, strike them - snap them out of it. An Islamic example may be that your wife has taken up drinking alcohol or taking drugs and neglecting the young children, placing them in danger while she is drunk.

To make the observation that Islam is sexist shows complete ignorance. In fact women have more rights than men! Many more. The second largest book in the Qur'an (Koran) is devoted to women and their rights. As a Muslim we are forbidden from trying to "convert" anyone to our religion - however it is obligatory on all Muslims to provide Dawah (Islamic education/clarification) to non-Muslims and that is what has been attempted here.

Please try to remember - there is Islam, and then there is "Cultural Islam", do not get to two confused. Of course we should probably add a third category of "Totally misused/misapplied Islam" which has been done to nearly all religions by people trying to get their own way and quote totally out of context.

By the way, I used to be a Christian as a boy/teenager, then studied many religions before finding my own way to Islam. I consider myself blessed to be able to see both sides and hope to help bridge understanding. However, this is a forum for English teaching, not religion so we should probably not get into religious debate on here. I have only now spoken on this because it is my duty as a Muslim to correct misconceptions and clarify misrepresentation.

I'm more than happy to talk to anyone in private message about this in futher detail, or if you want to check any of the above or talk to a local Muslim I would suggest going along to Mesjid Kebun Jeiruk (just up from Plaza Gaja Mada) on a Thursday night. Alternatively I'll be in Jakarta in less than a month and can meet/talk with you more then.

Salam · Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:27 am Post subject:

Singkong:

Poor translation and poorly cropped. For the others the full verse (4:34) is as follows:

004.034 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Al-Qur'an, 004.034 (An-Nisa [Women])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

And then the very next verse:

004.035 If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.

Al-Qur'an, 004.035 (An-Nisa [Women])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

Singkong · Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:35 am Post subject: Islam & women

Salam - appreciate the clarifications about Islamic teaching. I won't say much, as I think these teachings speak for themselves.

Just a couple of things:

KCA420 · Joined: 08 Apr 2004 Posts: 54

Salam · Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:18 am Post subject:

Irresponsible? No, I don't think so. How you choose to interpret what is being said is totally your choice.

I have quoted the rules as they stand and as they 'should' be applied. When one member of the family is a clear and present danger to the rest of the family then something needs to be done. First you talk to them and tell them how much you disagree with their actions. Second if they continue to endanger your family/children you refuse to sleep in the same bed with them as a protest. Then and ONLY then do you strike them (lightly) when it is clear that no amount of reasoning or talk is going to work and they are dead-set upon their own self-destructive path and hell-bent on taking your children with them. What would you advise? Talk until someone gets hurt, your own child neglected or abused?

No, sorry, no sympathy for such 'irresponsible' people. My family will be protected from anything that seeks to endanger it, both from without and within. Any 'responsible' parent would do the same. This is not a matter of, "you broke tiny rule #345 and so must cop a beating now". This is, "your actions are dangerous to yourself and the family - they must stop and stop NOW".

Domestic violence as any expert will tell you is either poor coping skills made manifest by lashing out, or it is a tyranical rule (usually by people with inferiority complexes seeking to enforce their will on their own small world). This rule, which clearly defines steps to be taken and ONLY in the most serious of cases and ONLY to protect the family. This is about protection, and responsibility - not personal power.

You could always do what us ever-so-wise westerners do every time there is a problem - run straight to the divorce courts. Sorry if a tried and true method offends your delicate western liberal sensibilities and you TOTALLY misinterpret the intention behind it in any sane and reasonable person's hands. But of course the western world is such a beacon of good behaviour, low crime, moral stances and no domestic violence.

Guess that's why Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world with 1.3 billion people (1/5th of the world's population) and many aussie reverts actually being women. I think you need to grow up and see that not everything is domestic abuse, and if you bothered to look at Islam properly you would see that women have more rights than men and men have a responsibility to keep them safe and loved. Safe, even from themselves when they act in a dangerous fashion that endangers your own children and they flatly refuse to listen to reason.

You harp on about women's rights - what about the rights of the children? Do not they have a RIGHT to be protected? Protected from alcohol and drug abusing parents. Protected from parents who gamble away money that should be spend on the children's education, clothing and food. Protected from being the laughing stock of the community because of their parents poor social conduct. Protected from parents who are criminals.

Keep on with your post-modern western ideals and judgements of others. They have certainly shows us a shining beacon of society so far. You'd do well in America I think. I wont answer any more of your comments. If you want to learn what true Islam is then I pray you will find right guidance.

This is a forum for teaching english in indonesia. I only posted originally to clear up a misconception that someone else posted that was damaging to the image of my religion as it was plainly false (I don't blame the poster - lots of misinformation around). I will not defend my religion on this forum, but invite any who wish to ask questions and seek information to contact me privately.

If you don't agree with Islam - don't follow it, easy. But if it offends you so much I wouldn't bother living in Indonesia unless you love stress and being judgemental.

- Again -
This is a forum for teaching english in indonesia.

Chester · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 383 Location: Australia

how long have been teaching english in jakarta, sadam? oops salam

Cardinal Synn · Joined: 01 Nov 2004 Posts: 586

Well, mate, if I saw you strike a woman, "lightly"or no, I'd kick yer erse. Hard. POW POW!! Whip whip!! There is NO excuse for hitting women. To try and justify it is... pathetic. But, giving a wife beater a doing can be justified...
You seriously think physical violence will work where talking fails? I'll wave bye bye as I watch you stumble off back into the dark ages. Get a grip!

Henry_Cowell · Joined: 27 May 2005 Posts: 3352 Location: Berkeley

In civilised societies with civil laws, a person who strikes another person is guilty of battery.

KCA420 · Joined: 08 Apr 2004 Posts: 54

Cardinal Synn · Joined: 01 Nov 2004 Posts: 586

I think I'm right in saying that Salam lives in Australia but is keen to move to Indonesia and marry an Indonesian woman (women?). As wife beating is illegal in Australia, I can see why he wants to emigrate. Islam or not, I don't think Indonesia welcomes wifebeaters either. I don't think he realizes just how shocking his attitudes are regarding strking women - to keep them in line. Good Lord!

KCA420 · Joined: 08 Apr 2004 Posts: 54

Singkong

The permission to beat one's spouse applies only to the husband, I presume?

It gives a lot of power to the husband, when he can judge and punish at his own discretion.

Henry_Cowell · Joined: 27 May 2005 Posts: 3352 Location: Berkeley

sidjameson · Joined: 11 Jan 2004 Posts: 629 Location: osaka

I keep hearing this nonsense about Islam being the fastest growing religion. As if good minded people all around the world are seeing the light. What billy bollocks. I think what you want to say is that muslims are popping out sprogs at such an alarming and inconsiderate rate that no other people religous or otherwise can keep up with them. While I was in Malaysia it seemed every Chinese malay I talked to had or wanted to have a sinlge child. Talk to the ethnic muslims though, my goodness, 8, 9, 10 kids seemed to be the norm. Thats the danger of all religions; they encourage one to think about the next life more than this one. I'd guess that when one is certain that a future paradise awaits then one isn't too bothered about the enviromenatl and sociological devistation that over populating this world creates.