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Real Degrees Matter?
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Klamm



Joined: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 121

PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:52 am    Post subject: Relatively speaking, yes Reply with quote

Hamish,

I can hear something of what you're saying: a BA English or any level of education or certification does not a great teacher make. And yet, it's one extremely important gauge of the educational/learning. It's not practical in the immediate sense, but important. It needs to be respected in our industry.

I'm unsure if you know Latin, but if you don't that might be why you've never found a way to use it in class:). I'm not being pompous, but I have used Latin with students and they've found it very helpful. There are Latin root words that are used again and again in our English language. Understanding some of the roots can save time and increase vocabulary at an exponential rate. If you know "magnum" means "big" or "great;" if you get that sense of the word and the teacher puts a bunch of English words with that sense of "big" or "great" encrusted in their meanings, it might stick. You might begin to have a general sense of new words that you wouldn't otherwise! Sure, a great teacher can use a lot of ways and means to get students to more efficaciously apprehend his/her meaning and lessons from day to day, but an even better one can give them ways and means to begin teaching and learning themselves outside of the class. I'm not banging Latin subjunctives over their heads; I just give them, from to time to time when appropriate root word comes, a few clues to ease things a bit later on and begin to see English and its vocabulary (second only to ancient Greek in its size) is not as overwhelming as it first appears.

Is experience important? Absolutely. No question about it. Does that necessarily make education less important? No. The one need not exclude the other. Our society may think on a binary this or that level, but we're teachers and many of us realize that the process, and bringing as much to the experience as is relevant, adds something. We need not debate over which hand is better. Both hands are best.
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wOZfromOZ



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 272
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 11:04 am    Post subject: the fakers Reply with quote

G'day!

Hope you all dont mind if I hit on a recurring theme and that's our customers! Our clientele are fine tuned receivers of knowledge, skills,
information, language, processers AND 'teachers'.

Some teachers can 'cut it' and some should simply hop on the first plane back home. If you're in a quality uni/college/school and you cant cut it, you'll soon know about it ...... the kids'll start carving you to pieces. - 'nature of the beast'!

As for the fakers, their time'll come and it's 'gunnabe soon' too - mark my words

hey,.... who is buying up a few RMB at the 'mo'!!>>>???

wOZfromOZ
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Klamm



Joined: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 121

PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 5:32 pm    Post subject: Look where all this talking got us Reply with quote

I tend to think people who talk down the value of degrees and strong educational backgrounds are old vets who gots the experience but don't have academia to back it up. Nothing wrong with that, just my guess. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong.

Wokka!
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Klamm



Joined: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 121

PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 5:35 pm    Post subject: Ps-ing Reply with quote

Yes, it's 'Klamm'. A major character in Franz Kafka's unfinished novel, The Castle.
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Count-Fathom,

I must side with Klamm in the Q of how important Latin is: English a Germanic tongue, yes, but without Latin it would be nothing but a German dialect akin to Alsatian or Swabian - not used in writing, just an oral tradition, whereas all writing would be standard German. Latin vocabulary makes up perhaps one third of the modern English tongue; half of these words were borrowed from French, the rest from Latin, Italian or Spanish. But English still is a 'Germanic" tongue, because key words - body parts, agricultural terms, certain grammar functions such as the prepositions, are typical of Germanic languages.
But the study of Latin really comes handy for anyone studying a foreign language. To begin with, it opens your mind to how languages work on a more subtle level than the mere lexical plane, because grammar is the A and the O of this language. It teaches students to think analytically and arriving at some logical conclusions. This is a tradition that is so alien to our students from China, Korea and Japan, which explains why they can seldom cope with our first language.
Even native English speakers tend to think that grammar is something of secondary importance. Well, they can do their conversation lessons with Chinese, but they can neither make English easier for the student nnor do students ever get to the bottom of English texts.
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Lela



Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fail to understand why many of these posts end up in p...ing contests with people trying to be "right" rather than just expressing views and learning something from one another. None of us know it all, and all of us come from various backgrounds and experiences,even here in China.

Quite frankly, while finishing my degree in TESOL, one of the courses I took was American Literature. Every Monday, we had a pop quiz on Latin prefixes and suffixes... It is amazing how many words in the English language are borrowed and how useful that experience was. Not that it matters, but when I get a copy of Readers Digest, I can usually score high on the Word Power section because I remember a little of the Latin I took in High School and from the lit class. In addition, MANY teachers hired to teach ESL are assigned, asked, whatever...to teach courses other than conversational English and so backgrounds in Latin, history, business, whatever can come in handy.

As far as comparing what Foreign Teachers make with the local Chinese teachers or the local population in general... all one has to do is read this forum and realize that there are many reasons why people come to China to teach English. Not all of the reasons are just "to teach". However, most do come at a sacrifice, whether it be cultural, familial, physical, etc. Most do want to teach and teach well, which is learned through experience.
What is wrong with making a good salary for our knowledge and expertise? My understanding from a recent conversation, is that the cost of the Foreign Teacher is passed onto the parent and when you take into consideration the number of students in your classes, that is not much. In addition, most of us know that most Chinese have multiple incomes... they have had to fine ways of making money other than their regular salaries.... I am not saying they are rich...but how does a parent who makes 1,500 a month, pay a tuition for their child of 11,000 RMB a year?

If we do a good job in the classroom, we impart much more than language...we impart life principles (character, honesty, integrity, hope, success, confidence...) that is invaluable to the child, the school and to this nation. I am not saying that a teacher, no matter what his credentials are, should be put on a pedestal. We should realize, however, that the school is making money on us in several areas...one of which is marketing our "foreigness" to get students...We should expect and receive decent salaries and benefits and be treated with respect...not superior, but respect. We are not cattle, nor it is not our fault that the Chinese teacher works ridiculous hours, and gets little pay. Teachers that are treated well, paid well, and do a good job teaching, tend to stay rather than burn out or flame out.
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Bertrand



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 293

PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Count_Fathom wrote:
I thought English was a Saxon/Germanic language. Many Latin derivitives, but much closer to German than French/Italian/Spanish.


Withion traditional diachronic linguistics, present day 'English' belongs firmly in the West Germanic Family of Languages, and is, in fact, a present day cousin of present day German, sharing the same 'Vorfahren'.
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Bertrand



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 293

PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roger wrote:


But the study of Latin really comes handy for anyone studying a foreign language. To begin with, it opens your mind to how languages work on a more subtle level than the mere lexical plane, because grammar is the A and the O of this language.


The study of ANY language "opens your mind to how languages work on a more subtle level than the mere lexical plane", as would be evinced if you read, say, a basic introduction to generative linguistic theory such as Pinker's The Language Instinct. Grammar is the "A and the O" of ANY language; in NO language do words have random meanings or random phonetics, phonology, morphology, syntax, or pragmatics.

Roger wrote:

Even native English speakers tend to think that grammar is something of secondary importance.


What do you mean by 'even'? Surely you mean 'especially'? Anyway, It IS of secondary, perhaps no, importance to a speaker. Have you not read anything I have posted or any literature out there in this field? You MUST distinguish between 'knowing that' and 'knowing how'. Remember, half full IS NOT the same as half empty, as shown by comparing 'almost half full' with 'almost half empty'. You are not looking at the same thing as me from a different perspective, you are simply not even looking!

You are still referring to PRESCRIPTIVE grammars as opposed to DESCRIPTIVE grammars. The former will say 'don't end a sentence with a preposition' in very much ther same way some books read 'don't eat fish with a fork' or something. The latter simply describes HOW people speak, that is, what grammar they use (but, of course, there is no grammar of any one language; a point which you TEFLers still do not seem to realise - it's just too vast and complex.) Thus, to a generative linguist examples such as (1) below are studied (a clause that ends in not one, but some FIVE prepositions):

(1) Daddy, what did you bring that book that I don't want to be read to out of up for?


Last edited by Bertrand on Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gray000



Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 183
Location: A better place

PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bert,
I think Roger means that native speakers, who CAN use English to communicate, do not consider grammar especially important, and that this position is more surprising/less excusable than that of the typical oral conversation class attendee, who does not want to study/learn/acquire new forms. THis is, I believe, meant as an indictment of the typical BS conversation lesson and of the English corner approach. I think we can all agree that learning grammar is necessary to discern the relationship between lexical items in an utterance, and that there is a certain ego-driven blindness to the fact that most students of English in China can't use grammar. Ask them - they'll tell you they're great at grammar, they are just shy and need practice talking. Steel production is up 300%, comrade. We're not talking about saying 'youse' or y'all' or 'the dog what barks at midnight'; we're talking about a fundamental inability to communicate the concepts underlying the grammatical forms without ambiguity. NO offense, man, but I really think you're nitpicking unnecessarily.



By the way, is the child in your example reading to a book? That doesn't make sense. Please set us TEFLers straight on the obscure combinatorial principles governing five preposition combinations, or tell us where they can be found in your published works.
NOt a quote, a cut and paste

1) Daddy, what did you bring that book that I don't want to read to out of up for?

Gray
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Count_Fathom



Joined: 17 Apr 2003
Posts: 92

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2003 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed, Latin roots are the foundation of a good portion of our vocabulary, well worth the effort (I'm a minor in Classical Studies). I can manage a conversation in French, watch a TV show and have taken Spanish lessons. The Chinese is coming along - and odd to say, the grammatical structure of Chinese and Latin seem more akin than do English and Latin. Klamm should know - I'd love reading about this...
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Bertrand



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 293

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2003 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gray000 wrote:

[...] is the child in your example reading to a book? That doesn't make sense.
1) Daddy, what did you bring that book that I don't want to read to out of up for?


I thought the context was obvious, but perhaps not. Okay, the father has just walked up the stairs to his daughters room where she has been waiting for a story to be read to her. Ity is her father that she is addressing. I think now it will be clear. This is, actually, a little uinfair to you; it's an old chesnut and can be found in many and any general, first year undergraduate-type introduction to current linguistic theory. Try, say, Pinker's The Language Instinct.
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Gray000



Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 183
Location: A better place

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2003 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awww, thanks so much for trying to be fair to me! I don't get things like context - I though maybe 'bring up' meant 'mention' in this case, and they were having a conversation, which would have meant that.... oh, wait, it wouldn't have changed the grammar. Never mind. Rolling Eyes

The issue I take with your sentence, my friend, is that it is senseless. Your version:
1) Daddy, what did you bring that book that I don't want to read to out of up for?

The version in my first year linguistics textbook:
1) Daddy, what did you bring that book that I don't want to be read to out of up for?

Cool Thanks for your efforts to educate me, but if Pinker can't appreciate the subtle difference, I'll stick with what I got.

This is actually a pretty good illustration of the difference between grammar that is prescriptively bad and grammar that just don't make sense.
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woza17



Joined: 25 May 2003
Posts: 602
Location: china

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2003 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lela
I couldn't agree more about the urinating competiton. Today we had a big lunch to meet the new foreign teachers. It was really depressing, people trying to assert, protect their egos. One of the women, I liked because she was frank "I haven't taught before " other than the others who were trying to put a spin on their lack of experience. I have invited her to my place to have a look at ideas and tell her my experience. she has one of the characterisics that I respect, humility. I remember one of my drama queen friends, when I questioned his humility he said what's that, enough said. But you can discuss this to you are blue in the face it comes down to personality. I have the choice, I give the people whom I like and respect my time, the rest can go figure.
With respect
Cai Hong
"Birth and death are the bookends of life and its up to you what you put on the shelves"
me
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rogan



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Posts: 416
Location: at home, in France

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not just teach English and forget about Germanic Latin roots and 5 (misquoted) prepositions at the end of a sentence. Wink
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Gray000



Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 183
Location: A better place

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

....so anyway, getting reimbursed for a nice degree is difficult but not impossible. Embarassed
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