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Don't cry for me, Hong Kong
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wildnfree



Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 134

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:00 pm    Post subject: Don't cry for me, Hong Kong Reply with quote

Hi all
I am new poster here...

Well, I have been living and working here in HK for almost 3 years. Worked in High Schools, Primary Schools and kindgergartens. I plan to leave soon.

HK has been good but not exactly what I was looking for. I hoped HK would be a multicultural, vibrant city. Unfortunately that hasnt been the case. I'm no longer interested in being the token white guy and a promotional tool for schools here to attract students. I'm don't want to be told I can't do such and such cause I'm White. People here have very closed, insular lives and think they are so cosmpolitan cause they wear what they think are 'western' clothes. Nevermind that they have a very conservative and ancient chinese belief system at work...

HK has given alot to me,and if course I am grateful. However, in terms of long-term living and development...it just doenst hit the spot.

Just needed to express myself!
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Horizontal Hero



Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 2492
Location: The civilised little bit of China.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know what you mean. It's not easy living here. I think two years will do me. One year to go!
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once again



Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 815

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm don't want to be told I can't do such and such cause I'm White


Interesting posts. But I am puzzled by the quote. What have you been told that you can't do because you are white?

I now find myself in a working environment with teachers of many nationalites and many nationalities of students. It would be interesting to hear what you think a multicultural city is and where you think you will find one.
Regards,
Once Again.
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wildnfree



Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 134

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am of european extraction, yet speak fluent cantonese (learnt it for over 10 years). I have had several schools warn me not to let parents of students know this, as it would be seen very negatively. I have been in teacher / parent interviews with someone interpreting when I could have saved the hassle by speaking directly with parents.

It is ridiculous to hide such a skill when it could be of so much use. It has alot to do with keeping you 'foreign' and 'outside' as much as it has to do with other peoples' egos.

I have applied for jobs in the service industry - not to be given a second look despite having language and work related experience.

A multi-cultural city, in my humble definition, is a city where peoples' employment/skill base is not restricted on base of their race; nor should their behavour be restricted. Besides teaching, what other jobs have you seen non-chinese doing? An indian bank teller? A Filipino ticket seller in the MTR? The most common counter-argument is the language barrier, but in my experience it seems chinese are happy with this segregation. Where I am from (Sydney), new immigrants are given free English lessons to assist with intergration. In other words, immigrants/foreigners are assisted/expected to contribute to society, not be marginalised by it. As any non-chinese chinese-speaker can attest to, chinese do not like speaking to non-chinese in cantonese - discouraging any intergration.

Racism exists in other ways here. My students openly express hatred for blacks, South-East Asians and Japanese. Adult students have often remarked that "all" westerners don't save money and spend their time sleeping around and living in Lan Kwai Fong.

The chinese channels (which I used to watch frequently) had a gov-sponsored add promoting acceptance of new immigrants into HK. Not one of those in the add was non-chinese - in other words the only ones we need to accept, are those mainland immigrants.

With the risk of sounding patronising (and I don't intend to in the slightest), unless you speak fluent cantonese and have lived for an extended amount of time, you can't fully appreciate the problem.
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Zero Hero



Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 944

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildnfree wrote:
My students openly express hatred for blacks, South-East Asians and Japanese.

Don't hondle us, 'wildnfree'. Personally, I have never heard a HK Chinese person express hatred for anyone, especially not the Japanese. I too can speak Cantonese and I often hear people ask each other if their new haircut makes them 'look Japanese'. Japanese fashion, music, and language, is all the rage, as are the Korean equivalents.

One must at least know something of others in order to be able to hold 'hatred' for them, and most here, at least judging from the various sectors I have taught, are at worst merely cliquish and informed only about the paraphernalia and trivial details of their own sub-culture, such as the latest seasonal apparel or the new 'must have' mobile telephone.
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echo2004sierra



Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 90
Location: prc

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my perspective, Wildnfree sums up Hong Kong and its natives precisely and accurately.

I don't speak Cantonese, but I believe that HKers would tell him/her to hide his local language skills from the "parents".

I agree that one should be employed based on his/her skills and expertise, not on the colour of his/her skin. Yet there are loads of HKers doing English-speaking jobs despite the fact that they speak Chinglish.

I just think that, generally speaking, Wildnfree, has summed up HK people as I see them and therefore as they are.

I say this as one with a HK spouse.
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once again



Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 815

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The no Cantonese rule for teachers seems very sensible. This gives the students no other choice but to speak English. Although you did not want to seem patronising wildnfree, you were. I have been here over ten years also, so assuming that everyone that has been here that long will share that point of view is innacurate.

The problems you describe of HK are the same as the problems found everywhere. How many black congressmen/senators are there in the US. The same for members of parliament in the UK. I have heard many complaints about the racist attitudes of Australians, and their institutionalised mistreatment of Aborigines, both historically and currently, is nothing other than shameful. And from what I gather from the news, don't the Australians have detention centres where they put all immigrants seeking asylum? Hardly laying out the welcome mat is it.

Some of the narrow minded attitudes you highlight are no more inaccurate than the narrow minded attitudes of those in the UK. The major difference being that Ihave never comeacross a race motivated attack in Hk, or heard of shops being burned down because of race.

I was dissapointed on leaving the UK to find prejudice everywhere. If you find somwhere without it, let me know.


Last edited by once again on Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:29 am; edited 2 times in total
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the Chinese do have a mind about certain things that's set in stone, to be sure, and "white face only speaks Jingo lingo" may be one of those mindsets although I find it hard to believe they were not a little grateful to you for knowing their local vernacular.

I urge you to go public with your experience, AND TO PUBLICISE DETAILS. There are many media outlets that should be happy to get your message back to the HK community; I suggest the SCMP.
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once again



Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 815

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roger, very interesting that you have never urged me to go public with my oppinions. I guess it must be only the negative ones that you want publicised. But what great news would SCMP pick up on?

1) An English teacher was asked not to speak Cantonese?
2) An Australian thinks that HK students are racist?
3) An Australian thinks that Sydney is better than HK?

Not really earth shattering news is it. I come from a very racist country. The UK is a VERY racist country. Prejudice is rampant and attacks based on race are not uncommon. There is nowhere I have lived or travelled to in the world that has no discrimination. Unfortunaley, this problem seems universal. So criticsing a place/country for racism seems about as useful as complaining that the clouds are grey on rainy days.

Indian people may complain about discrimination in HK, but then discriminate in their own countries.

Australians may complain about discrimination, but then discriminate in their own countries about Aboriginals and lock asylum seekers in camps.

Filipinas in HK complain about discrimination, but then are prejudice about black people.

Chinese people complain about discrimination when not in China/HK. but then do the same in their own countries.

But somehow HK becomes the epitome of evil because its residents prefer to talk in English to a non native Cantonese speaker. Maybe, and just maybe, they find it easier because their grasp of English is much better than the faltering grasp of Cantonese that most "fluent" Cantonese speakers seem to grace themselves with.



SHOW ME SOMEWHERE WHERE THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN AND I WILL GO!
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Netminder



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Over the last 11 years I've lived in over 12 countries in Asia, the Middle East, Europe and North America, and always found my attitude to the country at any given time simply reflected the cycle of culture shock (pro or con) I was in.

I can't help but think of a bit of worldly wisdom my father told me in homily form many years ago:

A cowboy rides into town and pulls up to the nearest saloon. Sitting on a chair outside the saloon is a local character who greets the newcomer.

"So what are the people like in this here town?" asks the cowboy to the local.

the local pauses for a moment to gather his thoughts, then asks the cowboy:"Well, what were the people like in the last town you were in?"

"They were all theives, liars and turncoats, down to every last man, woman and child," replied the cowboy.

"Well," reflected the local,"You'll probably find the exact same kind of folk here then."
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wildnfree



Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 134

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While everybody may have different experiences, thankyou for contributing.

So,to ONCE AGAIN, who said not to speak cantonese to students, please re-read the post. It said nothing about speaking to students. It was about the parents.

Roger...about going public...I have thought about it many times. Even had the idea to go out with a hidden camera, and show the difference in how I am treated compared with a chinese friend. Show people how when people hear and see you speak cantonese, they will still talk about you like you don't understand and can say nasty things. Or show a job interview/request a job and how people will automatically stereotype you as "good for teaching, not much else". It would be good to bring such behavour out in the open.

Once Again made some comments about discrimination in the west, notable Australia. My family knows all too well about that...they were immigrants from southern europe after ww2 to cut sugarcane. However, the reason I /we feel fairly comfortable there in Australia is that there exists legal and social recourse to deal with discrimination. The government has explicity outlawed it. Comparing the 2 places is futile. Discrimination, while it does exist, is by far less a problem that HK. Has the HK gov. enacted anti-dis. laws?

There is no anti-racial discrimination laws in HK. You could be fired for being British and have no legal recourse.

There is no anti-gay discimination either. No social funds given to intergrate new arrivals.

HK permanent IDs can be aquired by continuously residing for 7 years . Yet a non-chinese and an ethnic chinese, no matter from where, will have 2 very conspicuously differing IDs.

I am happy you havent encountered racism here. That doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

Personally, I feel the BRITISH have alot to answer for. In their 150 years here, they brought significant numbers of foreigners (ie indians & pakistanis) to assist in their colonial government. Yet there was no assistance given in terms of social acceptance. Hence most indians are among HK's most discriminated.

HK is great to live temporarily and make a few $$, but to call it home and live here long term...would be very challenging.
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once again



Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 815

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couldn't agree with you more about the British needing to take a lot of the blame for the situation in HK. I think you will find that I stated that the UK was a very racist country. As for not talking to parents/students in Cantonese, I am assuming that a parent would mention to his/her child that they had just had a full conversation in Cantonese with the teacher. So it still seems like a good idea to me.

Not quite sure why you think I haven't encountered racism here. Isn't the whole point of my post that racism is everywhere?

You state that discrmination, where it does exist, is far less a problem than it is in HK. To paraphrase your earlier comment, I suggest that until you have been black/asian or aboriginal in Australia, you will have no idea of what discrimination is really like. Or maybe, it is just like the discrimination you yourself have come up against in HK.
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Netminder



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This "debate" reminds me of a recent BBC programme wherein a Pakistani Muslim cited that in the post-911 world, there are people who refuse to see 911 as an act of the lunatic fringe, but rather blame the Muslim world as a whole.

In other words, yet another mass-media hyped piece of fluff that demonstrates "when you look for sh*t, you'll find it." What they left out is, you would find the exact same people hostile to Muslims (and have likely always been so, pre-911) being equal opportunity racists, hating other groups for just as absurd reasons as well.

To probe the psyche of the average person in any culture will betray personal biases and proclivities that do not jibe with your own- yet to stereotype an entire culture based on anecdotal experience is folly. We are all flawed, imperfect beings with our own stupid prejudices, and if people are so hostile to you that they badmouth you in their presence, well, refer to the Bing Crosby's "accentuate the positive, elimnate the negative grasp hold of the affirmative, and don't mess with Mr. In-between."

So if you choose to wallow in the mire of other people's less-admirable qualities, don't expect everyone to jump on the bandwagon with you. We are all quite stupid, imperfect beings, regardless of accident of birth.
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subwoofer



Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found that in HK the HK Chinese seem fairly accepting of South East Asian folk, but seem to despise the Mainland Chinese.

I've spoken to many HK Chinese about this and many (though I'll be quick to add not all for fear of someone jumping down my neck) describe the Mainlanders as 'dirty', 'thieves', 'dishonest', etc etc...

Seems kind of odd as they're all Chinese....

Laughing
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islanddreamer



Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We may blame the British colonial government for the racism here, but in fact it was the sign of the times. There were very few 'tolerant' or inclusive societies in the world at the beginning of the last century. And my feelings are that racism is worse now than when HK was a British colony. The Chinese believe in hierarchies and once the colonial 'masters' were removed they were free to claim rightful ownership, perhaps? Just a theory.

A note on racism in the UK - recently a report was published (I read it in the Times in around March) that cited the British as some of the most tolerant of all nations. As another poster said - there is racism / prejudice everywhere and I don't think HK is any worse than anywhere else.
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