Job Discussion Forums

[mr.pete]

Interesting concepts above, which I personally had never considered, but now can see as valid. One point I would disagree with, however, is that the non-NES wins the points for understanding the local language. Whilst this could be considered as paramount to assisting local students as to why they make certain grammatical or pronunciation errors, it also makes the potential classroom situation of using the local language. If the students are to use Vietnamese (as this is the Vietnam section of the website, it could equally be Japanese or Spanish), the whole point of employing a foreign teacher in my opinion, is to make an 'English-only environment' in the classroom., is it not? There are local teachers out there who know English grammar better than a large number of 'English teachers', yet they are paid as if they are less qualified. The job of the 'Western' English teacher is to make 'natural speakers', and if the 'Western' English teacher happened to be Vietnamese (or Japanese or Spanish) from California or Liverpool, then he should be considered equal to a similarly qualified Caucasian from same locales, BUT, in this field, he would be better qualified for the job in hand, if he CANNOT speak the local language.

[jojoni]

This is why I am leaving for Korea on June 30th.

[spycatcher reincarnated]

mr. pete

It was just an example, but saying that a little thought did go in to it.

Whilst I was making the table a couple of thoughts crossed my mind that I didn�t bother including:

� I have heard of an incident where a Viet kieu was employed on a NES�s salary and the school found it easier to do this because the Viet kieu didn�t speak Vietnamese and the school could thus explain to the students easier that he really was a NES than if the teacher had been able to speak Vietnamese.

� One could possibly have different competencies for different levels. IE it could be beneficial to be able to speak Vietnamese at beginner level, but beneficial not to speak Vietnamese at higher levels.

Also:

In Vietnam, as with most non native English speaking countries, the teachers from that country with the highest knowledge of English (supposed to be the best teachers) are generally given the high level classes.

In countries where the native language is English, schools usually try to get their best teachers to teach the lower levels as these are often considered more difficult to teach.

There could be lots of different arguments and instead of making it complicated, as I have, it may just be easier to say salaries should be as follows:

Non NES:.................x
NES:.......................x + y
Non Caucasian NES...?

or

Non NES:.................x + y
NES:.......................x
Non Caucasian NES...?

but this does bring us back to the racism issue.

It was just �food for thought�.

[Lana]

worked in Hanoi for a few years and loved it. Loved the people, too, despite all those little culture-clashing moments! I found the insularity of Vietnamese culture one of the hardest things to get used to, even with my dearest friends. I don't think it's being racist at all to say that Vietnamese generally have a very inflexible and rigid view of "the right way" things should be done, and that doesn't just apply to English teachers.

'Chung ta' (We) should all get up at a certain time, do our morning excercises and have lunch at 11.30. No worries mate. Bun noodles are never eaten with chicken, but it's ok for Pho. Why? Who knows? Communist-type messages get blared at you over loudpeakers or those wonderful billboards to boost up your family values and DO THE RIGHT THING. Most are are innocent, some less so - the propaganda war against AIDS is aften praised but there is a real problem when people are given the fixed and misleading impression that only drug addicts can be affected.

I started lying about my age in conversationas with strangers after passing the magical 25 mark to not have to bother with all those "why aren't you married yet" questions, however benign and friendly. Foreigners in Vietnam are considered a bit strange and 'out there' whatever we do, so are lucky enough to operate outside the social rules but non-conforming Vietnamese often have a very difficult time. One of my best friends stopped going out with me to bars after moving to a new apartment block purely because she was conscious of gossip from neighbours about what time she got home at night.

Most Vietnamese people (especially those from the North I believe) are suspicious when it comes to travelling to another Vietnamese city or trying food from another country (ask your students if they've ever eaten Thai food...) The common question "CAN you eat Vietnamese food?" as opposed to "do you like.." implies that putting international food in your mouth, chewing and swallowing could actually be a physical impossibility. Vietnamese who happen to be born with darker skin can suffer cruelly from blatant discrimination and people go to ridiculous lengths to keep their skin white and avoid the 'nha que' (peasant) look.

I have a perfectly normal European appearance (lucky me!) but often got asked by students in a slightly bewildered way - "You are Australian, so why do you have black hair?" Ummmm...
It's very hard for them to imagine a country where everyone doesn't look the same. I try to explain to them that if they walked down the street in Melbourne no-one could possibly know if they were a foreigner or not, but it's a challenging concept for those who have never left Hanoi.

So. English teachers should also fit into a certain mould - young, white, active, blonde and blue eyed is an advantage too. Shallow? Absolutely. Vietnamese students and/or their parents are very self-conscious about their social standing and paying for a western-looking teacher (and maybe a nice end-of course photo to show for it) is partly about social prestige, finding the right job, meeting the right partner... But they are also keen for a high-quality education and curious about relating to another culture.

However, I was also aware of a handful of expats of Asian appearance/Viet Kieu teaching in Hanoi who all established themselves, a couple after minor difficulties. I would also be very sceptical of the earlier poster who said he couldn't get hired by the main schools over a young person with zero experience. But note that the main thing students want for their money are 'active' classes and therefore employers look for energetic teachers.

My point - finally! - is that it's not as simple as the colour of your skin - and the 'Vietnamese way' is not going to change anytime soon. The culture is being pushed and pulled in all sorts of complicated ways and people are both fascinated and repelled by the Western world.

Most importantly in Le Snak's case I believe the real problem is that there are all sorts of uncomfortable issues that come with being Viet Kieu that students and employers alike would rather not deal with. From what I've heard in the news, the climate is changing now and a lot of VK are coming back to VN and starting up businesses, (but I guess it also helps to have heaps of cash...)

As obvious as it is to say it I think given all that's gone by in history none of these points are hardly suprising and we should avoid rushing in to criticise. Le Snak - persevere, get in there, do whatever it takes, and start off by opening a few people's eyes, that's a small step in the right direction.

[Le Snak]

Thank You Lana.

There is no doubt in my mind, that every time I step into a classroom, I have an extra hurdle to jump.

I've read all the responses that have come from this topic, and I am glad to see that the issue is being exposed. I am also glad that there is a general air of understanding and compassion.

[Lana]

Just out of interest, what are you doing now? Are you teaching? Still in HCMC?