Job Discussion Forums

[Netminder]

So after 6 months of hand-wringing, expensive faxes, multiple face-to-face telephone interviews, cajolling former employers to send on satisfactorily-complete "work records," hassling my alma mater to fax the EMB directly, being contacted by several high schools in Hong Kong and chosen by one, I thought I was through the starting gate- but then they just PULLED ME BACK IN. Last week I was told by EMB that they are "still waiting on my work records" in order to calculate my salary, work records that had already been sent in. I told them such and that no more would be forthcoming, and that they must calculate my salary with what they've already got.

So am I high and dry now? What is your experience?

[well-travelled]

Netminder.

My old friend!! Welcome to the sub-real world of the EMB.

They will calculate your salary on the documented evidence they have received from you re. your previous employers. Any experience you have written on your CV but that is not fully documented IN EXACTLY THE WAY THAT EMB WANTS IT will be unacceptable.

From your post, it's not clear to me whether you have sent ALL the documentation in and EMB has misplaced it, or the documentation you have submitted does not verify all of your past posts on your CV, or the documentation you have submitted does not conform to EMB's exact requirements.

However, I don't see you being high and dry. If you have accepted a post (Cheung Chau?) then that should still go ahead, albeit on a reduced salary scale. That scale can be modified later (& back-paid) if you can provide the adequate documentation later.

And if you thought the bureaucracy in the Middle East was bad .......... !!!

Perhaps I should also add, that many prospective NETs face the problems you're facing - you just have to be very patient and hang in there.

well-travelled

[islanddreamer]

Netminder - I had the same problem. They put me on the lowest rung of the pay scale until I could verify some ridiculous details of jobs I had many years ago. They then put me where I should be and gave me backpay. In fact, many of my NET friends were in a similar situation.

[Netminder]

Well thank-you both for that. Having taught in Taiwan, I have come up against the formidable foe of, dare I say, Kafkaesque Chinese bureacracy. In point of fact I had all the records sent (those that could be), and EMB started nit-picking about details that I was too embarassed to go back to employers with, old bosses who'd already gone far out of their way to help me.

It is re-assuring that people who faced the same scenario prevailed, albeit at a lower pay scale; but even at the reduced pay, it does pay much better than any other posts I've ever seen for BEd-holding TESL teachers, including Saudi Arabia et al. In any case, my motives transcend pay scale, so it is only of minor consideration at the end of the day.

[pompomouse]

I have similar concerns. I was told I was recommended for hire May 20th and it was just two days ago that I received an email asking me to verify one item on my CV. I responded saying I could not get the proper documentation for said job because I have lost touch with that previous employer. I was told too that they are still verifying my documents and establishing my salary rate and then I will begin to receive job offers. It is a bit unsettling knowing others have already received job offers while I have not heard a thing yet. Should I be worried?

[well-travelled]

pompomouse

Im a secondary NET so my situation may not be revelant to u as a PNET - but, as far as I know, what has been posted above (including my own postings) is, in fact, relevant.

They are desperately short of PNETs. The bureaucracy is just the way they do things - and they do this with ALL NET teachers - they aren't picking on you.

I suggest u email EMB and say yes, you understand, but u really want to work here & u will provide the full documentation later...

Once u provide it, then they will re assess your salary scale & backpay what they owe you

That is the way it works....


well-travelled

[islanddreamer]

I am a PNET and not renewing my contract this year. My schools have known that I am off to greener pastures since March, and I completed a form for the EMB around that time too. To date we have received two CVs from prospective NETs - one already in HK hoping to change schools and the other based in Australia. The first NET then changed her mind and decided to stay in her current schools because she couldn't be doing with the hassle of trying to find new ones, and the second one never answered the email we sent her.......

So, at the moment, we are high and dry waiting for more CVs....something to happen.....I really wanted to do a proper handover but it looks like my schools won't get a new NET before I go!

The EMB are sitting on piles of CVs and successful applications. They're just not getting farmed out to the schools!

[Zero Hero]

The EMB as an institution has a responsibility to ensure that only applicants whose work records and qualifications have been thoroughly investigated and confirmed are passed onto (i.e., recommended to) school heads. This is an example of a professional measure that safeguards us all from wannabes with falsified references and documentation (such as are prevalent on the Mainland).

If you do not wish to work for a government scheme that takes work experience and qualifications seriously (and which certainly pays a serious amount, perhaps only matched by Japan, Singapore, and the KSA), then my advice would be to not work for the EMB of HK but to go somewhere where they take people on their word. It will be obvious what type of person is attracted to each system.

If this is frustrating you then my genuine advice would be to actively seek employment elsewhere. If the professional procedures to which you refer and about which you complain (which are by no means unique to HK, just go to Singapore or Brunei to experience the same) cause you so much Angst then at some point in the future the EMB are likely to send you over the edge.

[Netminder]

Indeed, Zero Hero, but thet does not quite address the point- being that we have already had our work records faxed and verified- yet the EMB chooses to be punitive in their selectiveness in detail. My former employers dotted all of their i's and crossed their t's, however the EMB asked the same questions AGAIN and wanted the employers to fax them AGAIN.


EMB is certainly not immune to snafu's, and I would give your posting a lot more credit if not for the fact that the EMB is so desperate to recriut teachers thta they've stooped to posting job vacancies through CECN and Dave Sperling- two methods I would attribute to the self-same "lesser discriminating" schools you cite in your post.

[Zero Hero]

I do not care one iota where they now advertise, the requirements are the same. I am sure they will endeavour to advertise where they think they can have exposure to the most people. Most serious employers in the world of TEFL are 'desperate' for well-qualified, experienced staff with documented work records and references; it is not unique to HK or the EMB.

Employers select employees, but the reverse is also true. If you are not content or impressed with the EMB thus far, why select them as an employer of yours?

[well-travelled]

Well, here we go again!! A while back, on one drunken evening � and the thread must still be here somewhere � I posted a disparaging comment about EMB and was rounded upon by both Zero Hero & Netminder.

And now, ironically, ZH has begun rounding upon Netminder, although I see that ZH has come back and deleted the incomprehensible barbed comment that was there at the beginning of his last posting on this thread! Must be getting soft on his Sai Kung rooftop in today�s sunshine - and who can blame him after these bleak rainy days. Plenty of foul in HK lately, but far less of the fair!

But enough of these pleasantries. I personally believe that EMB are, by and large, pretty awful. What ZH calls professional, I call incompetence � at an almost anally retentive level.

I have no problem with EMB confirming the truth of our qualifications, experience etc�That seems totally reasonable to me. (Although, I must confess, I am not over-concerned about being safeguarded from the hordes of TESL wannabes with falsified documents who are waiting on the Mainland to swamp the NET scheme!!)

No, it�s the time frame that concerns me. Most prospective NETs sent in their applications in January. Interviews were in March. It�s now the end of June and EMB are still checking documents, even after telling the people that they were accepted onto the scheme back in March. And these people � some of whom have not yet received a positive job offer - have to report for duty in about seven weeks time!!!

It�s no wonder that islanddreamer�s school is �high and dry� at the moment and I know that that�s not the only school that�s still NETless at this late stage in the game.

Basically, it seems to me, a lot of good candidates give up the ghost because of EMB�s dilatory way of dealing with things � which is, surely, very, very wasteful. (And, you could argue, may allow the less-qualified to get their foot in the door�)

The one positive thing is that, once they�ve put you through the recruitment wringer, you will probably have very little to do with EMB. The school is your official employer, and all of your dealings are with the school itself - which is good if you have a good Principal, Panel Chair etc. Unfortunately, the reverse also applies. The NET scheme is a bit of a lottery.

One final point � keep a copy of everything!! If you leave and then decide to return in 3-4 years time (which a few people have done) you have to re-submit the documentation.

EMB throws it all away once you�ve gone.

well-travelled.

[Netminder]

Oh Good Grief! No wonder lawyers are reluctant to have teachers on juries, as we are such overly-judgemental cretins.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings there ZH, but again the point has evaded you- I had all my ducks in a row- all of my documents were faxed in by the employers, and EMB were nit-picking me to death about incosequential details. Why the EMB would not contact my employers directly but instead harrass me with contacting them to sort out their concerns is beyond me. And sorry, but I've yet to see a high-calibre school advertise on Dave's ESL cafe, like it or lump it.

As for you, Well-travailed, I do not agree- this is one weak link in their chain, indeed, but I would not write off the entire EMB over one snafu that I can rectify later on. I'll leave sweating the petty details to to others; all other aspects of the lengthy process have been above board, from the thorough reference-checking to re-imbursing me the costs of traveling to the interview.

Now let the fur FLY!!!

[Zero Hero]

You are the one ranting and raving about 'red tape' and how it is annoying and inconveniencing you, not I. Mind you, you have at least confirmed that you are most likely not suitable for HK, especially not for any work in anyway involving the EMB.

I have been a NET and I have done contract work for the EMB � I have been involved in two projects with them � and I can say that what you have experienced so far is but the tip of the iceberg. Believe me, as the saying goes, 'you ain't seen nothing yet'.

Applying to work on the EMB NET scheme in the SAR of HK and complaining of the 'red tape' and arguably excessive bureaucracy is rather akin to going to Singapore and bemoaning the draconian censorship laws, or going to the KSA and lamenting not being able to have pork chops. In fact, complaining of such trifle matters in HK is actually like going to the North Pole and complaining of the incessant cold.

I will say again, if you can't simply accept their ways and methods in a positive and professional fashion then I would seriously suggest seeking alternative employment, as I do not think you will find it a positive or rewarding experience.

Of course, you are free to believe what you want to believe and to follow whatever course you desire. I would point out however that you are probably better off listening to those that have actually done the job for which you are currently applying.

[Netminder]

Come come now, Zero Hero. Your suitability to assess my abilities in anything will be considered on its merits, as I refuse any cheap bating. You really mustn't let such trivial things as web board posts irk you so- think of your health, my friend. Think of your health.

So let's put aside getting up close and personal and address the issue at hand. I had only objected to the senseless doubling of the same request, after having complied to a T as far as sending every document required.
Can you not agree that it was somewhat strange of the EMB to then act as if all was well, then tell me two months later that they are "Still waiting on my work records" that they had already received?

There is no need in your getting defensive over it- any questionable act on behalf of the EMB is not a personal attack on you. If you read my post carefully, you will also notice that I do not attack the EMB, and apart from this aspect, have had a fairly good relationship with them thus far.

So please, I ask you in all sincerity- take a moment to reflect before you reply. I bear you no malice, and I should hope you feel the same.

[Zero Hero]

'Netminder', with all due respect, it does not matter what I think, I am merely attempting (without much success it seems) to convey some sense of how to react to such (in the greater scheme of things, trivial) matters. This advice, for what it is worth, is based on superior experience.

Like most if not all institutions, the EMB is imperfect, at least from the perspective of a trained western eye. But it works their way (the long hard way) very well. And, as it is their money, their word goes.

Does it make any sense for example for them to decree that both local primary and local secondary school teachers must undergo the same benchmark exam? That is, that both levels of teacher must attain the same command of English? To you and I this most likely seems preposterous, but that is nevertheless the situation on the ground. Very competent local HK Chinese primary school teachers are not having their contracts renewed as they have failed to reach the standards required for secondary school teachers. As it happens, at least one NET I know also failed the benchmark exam, though this was hushed up very efficiently so as not to 'de-motivate' local teachers. I completed this exam as a guinea pig and it was by no means an easy ride.

I have since ceased to have any dealings with the EMB, and, were it not for the fact that I signed a confidentiality agreement with them which I take very seriously, I would write on many issues pertaining to their (seriously misguided theoretical underpinnings), and in more official media. Believe me, I am not a fan of theirs. But you are requesting advice on how to deal with these matters of annoyance, and I am advising that it is best to just 'go with the flow', 'don't rock the boat', and 'play the game' (insert clich� of choice). If they say eight or nine times that you have not supplied the necessary paperwork then, if you really want to get into the HK pay-scale, it is probably best to simply send them ten or eleven times to be sure. Once you are kicking it in the Caribbean this time next year on your annual summer holiday none of this will seem all that important.