Job Discussion Forums

[Mysterious Mark]

A number of people posting here have said that it's illegal to teach in China on an F visa, but there are two problems with this claim:

1) Giving lectures and conducting business are mentioned on embassy websites as legitimate F visa activities, and teaching may be construed as giving lectures, or providing information in exchange for remuneration, which is a business activity.

2) As far as I know, no-one posting here has ever provided any legal references on this issue.

So, if F visa holders are permitted to engage in educational and business activities, why would it necessarily be illegal to teach English, which is an educational and/or business activity?

And could someone please provide an exact reference to the relevant Chinese law(s)? Thanks.


http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/hzqz/zgqz/t84247.htm

[Volodiya]

Mark, I think you are quite right to ask people to respond with something authoritative, if possible, and this may be a question on which there is an "answer", in the Chinese Law.

The most recent edition of the guidelines used by the State Foreign Expert Affairs Bureau (the goverment agency charged with certifying foreign teachers in the different provinces and issuing the "Foreign Experts Affairs Invitation Confirmation"- one of two official documents you must have to apply for a Z visa, abroad) that I can find, says people coming to teach for less than six months, may enter on an F visa. (Those coming to teach for six months, or longer, are supposed to enter on a Z visa.)

[cj750]

The previous post is correct..that is the version in English, not sure what the Chinese reg sez or how it is translated..their are those who have stated that it depends on where you are gettin paid..if the money is coming from a source outside China..then the F visa is ok..if the source of income is in country..then a z is needed.
To tell the truth..many of the teachers I have met in Beijing have Fs and are in agreement that the f visa is the best..but it may leave you open to legal mesures by the local PSB but then again if you have a porblem with your boss, you can just leave, Provential goverments set the local standards so it would depend on the local goverment and how they deal with national standards. In the end, those who want ot come to China beleave what they want and come to find out their reality. Nothing is the same for all people..especially regulations.

[Volodiya]

cj750 wrote:

[Roger]

I stand taught new facts about the regulations concerning FTs in China - as regards the use of a business visa.
We used to have acrimonious debates, notably between a self-declared psychologist based in turn in Shenyang and now in Haikou, who was of the legitimate opinion that only work visa holders were legal; this was an indisputable fact.
But he went one farther in preaching that you cannot get a legal position in China without first obtaining a work visa aborad.
I have always maintained that many employers - both publicly-owned and private ones - hire foreign nationals who are here on tourist or business visas and upgrade that visa to a work visa once you have passed a probation period successfully. Quite obviously, this procedure is not strictly in the spirit of the law.

But that Dr philosophicus-psychologicus extrapolated from his personal situation just as much as I extrapolated from my own experience; he being given to pedantic assessments occasionally made erroneous conclusions (in another thread he said teachers do not have to take attendance of their students, which was misinformation of the highest order).

We are faced with circumstances that keep changing. There are a few rules that are set in stone, though:
- You are only legit in China if you have a work visa;
- you can do business in China if you have a business visa.

Sounds simple, right?

BUt why would a businessman bother to apply for a special category visa if the tourist visa does the same trick? It affords him no privilege at all.
There are some areas where a business visa might be advantageous: if you are on a demonstration tour to China on behalf of a ntextbook publisher, then obviously you would be delivering your "lectures" or little speeches in the interest of a business. Would you be remunerated? Of course - by your publisher in the U.K. or wherever they might be based.

If your tour takes more than 183 consecutive days you would be liable to paying a tax on the transactions you have done while touring China.

We as teachers also stand to pay tax but many will tell you they have never paid any. The truth is even paying tax is not subject to uniform practice in the PR of C. I have paid tax for the last one-and-a half years working for the same employer, and I paid tax before in an isolated case; for most of the time I have been here I haven't had to contribute to the national or regional coffers, though.
If you are a legit businessperson you will pay tax somewhere - either at home or here, or both.

So, it is advisable to push your employer to get a work visa for you; the business visa is a vehicle that invites corruption and underhandedness. BUt if your employer asks you to wait a month or two before you get a work visa, you accept their advice and apply for a business visa (since some provinces do not upgrade tourist visas to work visas).

[Keath]

Sure you can lecture. But you cannot get paid for it by a CHINESE source. The 'salary,' if any - should come from organization outside of China. and you are limited to 6 months - which also means that technically (though not in practice much anymore) the teacher is not required to obtain an AIDS test, and complete the physical examination form requird for Z type visa entry. (This regulation has been substancially relaxed in the last three years)

Its the same distinction as if someone was coming to US on a B1 visa verses, a H1 visa. One visa you can train and lexture but cannot be compensated for it in any manner. H1 Requires sponsorship, is generally expensive and a hassle to obtain and allows the person to work legally, collect wages and pay american taxes.

The F visa is a business visa, which is analagous to the united states B1 visa. Z visa is same as H1.. involves the bearers enrollment as a member of the working force and a tax paying entity..

---------

and YES, it is illegal to work in China on a F visa (if the school is paying you) though Hong Kong seems to be more flexible with this rule..

Individuals coming to China to teach for Summer Programs and Culture Exchange and University programs, require an F visa. (these are unpaid summer programs to teachers / student teachers.. etc.. )

Let ask another question:
Has anyone here received their Green Residence booklet by way of a F visa? Or was the visa status converted to Z type firstly? I believe that in order to obtain the green residence book, the bearer should have their status to be a working type status or resident status with a term of no less than one year..

Keith
www.journeyeast.org

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[tony lee]

The main problems comes when you fill out the form to get the visa.

The one for a tourist visa is pretty straightforward but does require you to declare your reason for wanting the visa - sightseeing, visiting friends and such..

I thought the one for the business visa needs documentation from the inviting institution or appropriate correspondence and contacts with businesses you are going to visit, and/or a certain declaration on the visa application form as to the purpose of the visit..

Surely if you have to make any sort of false declaration to get the visa then you must be illegal right from the start. Isn't that enough reason to say that a practice is unlawful? That something is poorly enforced does not make a practice legal. That 99 people get away with breaking the law does not guarantee that you will.

The laws ARE very specific about registering where you are living and basically require every alien to notify the PSB of changes of address within 24 hours. Tourist and those on business visas would normally stay in a hotel and that hotel must be authorised (less strict in Beijing now) and MUST notify the PSB of all the guests on a daily basis. That is why you can't register without a passport.
Those with a residence permit are authorised to live only at the specified address and when they travel are required to follow the same procedures as those on tourist or business visas. And that technically includes staying at friends or students' houses for a night or two.

There are perfectly straightforward procedures that if followed, allow a school the right to hire foreign teachers and there are set procedures to be followed so that the teacher is legal every step of the way. Sure it does take a bit of forward planning and may even cost a few dollars, but there are some advantages such as more certainty that you will get your airfare refunded and holidays paid for -- and it will always work. The tourist or business visa route introduces significant uncertainty and some risk and even if it does work -- and there are places where it WILL NOT work -- often mean a trip to HK at your own expense every 3 or 6 months plus the cost of a new visa. Then at the end of that job you may have trouble finding legitimate positions because you are teaching illegally and have no proper papers.

Maybe it is fine for the old hands who know their way around -- and many of them come a cropper along the way despite their knowledge of the system, but for the necomer with no language and no contacts and no experience, doing it legal means there is one less thing to worry about.

[Volodiya]

[tony lee]

article 44 of rules governing ... aliens states that Aliens who found employment without permission from the Mistry of ... blah bla blah ..
shall have their posts terminated and be subject to a fine of up to 1000 yuan and may be kicked out of China. Those employing can be fined up to 50,000 yuan and be forced to pay for the aliens repatriation costs.

[tw]

From www.chinajob.com/service/faq.php?news_id=54&faq_keyword=

[cj750]

I cannot give you a direct answer as to where I heard..and I did say I heard that the F visa is good only if alary is paid from the outside.of china..again as I have staed most teachers I have met in Beijing have gone for the F as if does give them more freedom to decide "shall I stay or go".
Although the information I get has not matched up with the info of Roger as I understand that a foreinger has to be in china for over three years before outside country souces of income are subject to tax. Also I have not found Tony Lee's assertion that with a z visa you will get your due..as I have stated before a contract or z is not a "promise" (even if that is what it is in your home country) and yes if disapointed by contract observance, a court is the final answer and few Fts have the time or money to get to the root of these problems and get their fair share. I have never met anyone with a f visa that has a residence visa I beleave that only students and workers are allowed the R.P...but still many who have fs still get housing and often make more money than the z carriers. What protection do they have..well what do they need. Most F workers are short term and not all that concerned with the "perks" instead opting for "cash in hand" as opposed to the promise of tomorrow and no matter what anyone tells you no "z" will make that a reality. Also I am wondering what Roger means when he sez that a F visa is required to do business in China. I may be wrong but I thought that a z visa was also issued to people who do business in China. The F was reserved for those who want to represent a company in china or to set up a representative office that would do no hard business. And that a business owner would receive a z.

[Roger]

I am a bit surprised to read that tax kicks in only after you have been here for 3 years. That's news to many!
In the past - before China joined the WTO - you were on tax holiday for up to 5 years, but since China has become a member of the WTO anyone is liable to pay tax right from the start.
My FAO says CHinese pay tax on salaries as low as 1000. I know for a certainty that most don't do that - depending on where they live. In more developed municipalities the tax authorities keep tabs on every employee but they can't do that in the boonies.

[tony lee]

[Volodiya]

One of the things that often happens in any community (and our community of people working and interested in working in China is such a community) is that certain information is passed around until it just becomes accepted as "gospel".

Now, thanks to the OP, we have reopened the question of whether it is possible to work, in China, lawfully, for remuneration- paid by a Chinese employer- under certain, limited conditions, with an F (business) visa.

I've offered a chance for some of the posters who have taken a strong position on this subject to provide a site to Chinese Law that establishes that it is not, as they maintain. This is not meant as a challenge: it is a search for information which is useful, and authoritative, as requested by the OP.

When all is said and done with this thread, it may have been established that it is not possible, under any set of circumstances to work, lawfully, on an F visa, as they maintain. But, I take the position on this, and all questions reqarding the Chinese Law and administrative practice, that we should examine the law, and the application of the law as it actually occurs, as the best evidence upon which to rely.

Those who have read my posts will understand that I'm in a continual search for further information on these subjects. I take no "hard and fast" position: I'm open to a change of opinion on any of these subjects; and, I believe we owe our readers more than bald faced assertions, and more than the mere repetition of information provided by others, without investigating further the basis for those assertions, and that information.