Job Discussion Forums

[Sea Sea Rider]

I suspect Saudi women are able able to glean enough information from hearsay,TV, the Internet, etc. to know there is something else--whether or not it is knowing better would be a judgement call.

[veiledsentiments]

The major problem that I see with a discussion like this is that we have a bunch of men... mostly Western men... making judgements about a culture that they have only scratched the surface of... and about women - err... of whom they probably understand even less.

Usool and I have already had our discussion on this issue here and reached a point of agreement on many issues while agreeing to disagree on others. Because this issue is bound up in both culture and more importantly religion, I have always felt that change must come from within. These women are getting educated... they travel... many spend months in 'our' cultures. They will come to their own decisions.

Basically, it's none of our business. We have plenty of our own cultural and societal shortcomings to work on.

VS

[zaytuni]

"And verily, a woman need know but one man well, in order to understand all men; whereas a man may know all women and understand not one of them."--Helen Rowland

[Bebsi]

[31]

The complex culture of Saudi Arabia, or for that matter any other country is a bit more difficult to understand than:

''Is this because they dont know anything else? This is not not an antagonistic question. it is genuine?"'

DMB has solved the problem of women in the Middle East-it is because they don`t know anything else. Duh

(edited by moderator)

[veiledsentiments]

No Bebsi... roe vs wade has not been overturned. It has not even been challenged in the Supreme Court. Although the religious fundies currently occupying the White House will certainly try.

VS

[usool]

Sea Rider and Gerund miss a key point. Their sincere belief that all that is western is best, a view held by the vast majority of EFL practitioners that I have met, is self referring because it lacks any empirical or rational evidence. Such people when approached about this topic, and engaged in deep philosophical discourse, usually retort that there is no need to engage the topic so deeply. The fact is west is best, why argue about it.

Oppression of women in Saudi? I agree, there is not enough porn, prostitution and paedophilia. But lets not worry, the west will teach them these freedoms soon, they shall be liberated. They will be taught the benefits of a society where rape occurs every 8 seconds, where children are routinely sexually abused. Yes, the women in the Middle East will soon learn that walking the streets semi naked is indeed a more self respecting and intelligent way of living. I bet they can�t wait


Regards and best wishes

[veiledsentiments]

[usool]

I'm not a great fan of this particular line of thinking. To believe that your opinion is right, even that it is absolutely right as I personally Islam is, is very normal. The problem with many western EFL people is that they hold their opinions for no apparent reason. I have tried to engage all the westerners I know in discourse but I have yet to find a single one who can handle a discussion. Most of them, whether here in the UK, or elsewhere are unable to articulate a response to simple questions. It is here, where personal belief merges with a sinister genre of racism and fascism that the problem is. The dislike these people have non-western and in particular Islamic societies is not borne of any intellectual process but is a dark hatred from the depths of their soul which is simply a reflection of the despair of their souls.

[Bebsi]

I hate to have to admit this, VS, but.....!!

[Bebsi]

Just read your posting, Usool.

Yes, I tend to agree with you too, to an extent. I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say that a majority of westerners...or any society...hold " a dark hatred in the depths of their souls", nor would I say that westerners hold a monopoly on ethnocentricity.

However, I DO take your point that many westerners have a strong bias towards Islam. This appears to be very much the case in Gulf "westpat" communities, notably those in Saudi Arabia. Perhaps it is the vast cultural differences that exist, which bring these feelings out in people.

Many westerners have difficulty coping with this, and as a result cocoon themselves in their compound/community, where they continue to live out their lives away from the local culture. They accept that the local culure and lifestyle are too much at variance wth what they are used to or can handle. Personally, I believe that such an approach is counter-productive, and one can easily miss out on many aspects of life. However, if people choose to do this, fair enough, especially having explored and experienced some aspects of that culture. Ironically, in my experience, most of those westerners just accept the differences, and don't hold any disrespect towards the locals.

There are also very many westerners who, notwithstanding certain significant cultural differences, allow themselves to be absorbed into local life and they just live happily in an "off-compound" type of existence.

The problem lies with that type of westerner who goes to KSA, with certain preconceptions that frequently derive from a colonial perspective. Those people have already decided that the local culture is inferior, that their own is vastly superior, and they are not prepared to even consider any opinions to the contrary.

[Sea Sea Rider]

Beg pardon Usool but don't assume I'm a rootin' tootin' red, white and blue flag waver/Muslim basher simply because I suggest that countries (north, south, east or west) which protect their citizens' rights to freedom of speech and their rights to assemble in public are more humane and enlightened than countries (north, south, east or west) which forbid these things.

I've been on the ropes since mentioning the US Constitution. Perhaps I should mention that the prison sentence given to John Walker Lindh is a better example of a recent violation of one's constitutional liberties than a 50 year old civil rights movement that achieved many if not most of its goals .

To this day the ACLU and other civil rights and human rights groups continue to file suit in federal courts on JWL's behalf. And in the meantime, he still has his head on his shoulders and no doubt a juicy book deal to look forward to.

As for this west is the best thing you mention, I believe and I am sure you agree that the recent prison sentences given to out-spoken reformists in KSA are just as disgraceful and abhorrent as the trials of Aung San Suu Kyi.

I suspect nobody would believe me to be a Buddhist basher in the case of Madame Kyi. Why does any mention of the lack of many civil liberties in KSA suggest anti-Islamic sentiments?

I maintain that

[Bebsi]

[usool]

Nothing wrong with having an aversion towards Islamic societies or practices. If this is borne from a deep intellectual conviction, fine. Personally I have serious issues with the many and deep social ills of the contemporary iconoclastic, hedonistic and ethnocentric western world. This is not to say ills, social or otherwise, don't exist elsewhere. They do. The difference is that the western world is lecturing human rights/democracy etc to the non western world when its own house is very much out of order. Interestingly enough, any serious seeker of truth may peruse the biographies of the luminaries of enlightenment discourse. Here were find intellectuals (Rousseau et al) lecturing to the world on the way forward and yet their personal lives were in complete disarray. Perhaps such people, like western discourse today, would be better predisposed to looking after their own affairs rather than concentrating on the affairs of other. Muslim societies contain many vices, but we have a coherent solution to these ills, outlined in our scriptures. Western liberals and conservatives would do well to stop criticising this approach and instead try to define a way forward for western societies that is not replete with intellectual and rational contradiction.

[lionbrian]

In my HO, most westerners (not the educated ones) associate Islam & Muslims with 911. That's completely wrong! On the other hand, there are many Arabs (especially Saudis) who have a bad idea about other religions. They are wrong too! The best way to go is RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE & MUTUAL RESPECT.