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Chris_Crossley
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Still in the centre of Furnace City, PRC, after eight years!!!
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 Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:13 am Post subject: A year before a school can hire FTs? Not in my experience! |
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| gulam2 wrote: |
| I beleive a school has to be in operation for at least a year before it can apply for a license to appoint foreign teachers. |
Not necessarily. When I first came to China in October 2001, it was as the very first FT for EF English First in the Hankou area of Wuhan. It was a brand-new school at that time, and it officially opened two weeks after my arrival - though that was because the opening was delayed for two weeks because the DoS did not arrive until ten days after I did. I guess that it would have looked bizarre for a new EF school to have opened with only the one FT and no DoS! Even so, there were actually no local teachers at all, be they part-time or full-time, at the time the school did open. |
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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:16 am Post subject: Re: A year before a school can hire FTs? Not in my experienc |
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| Chris_Crossley wrote: |
| gulam2 wrote: |
| I beleive a school has to be in operation for at least a year before it can apply for a license to appoint foreign teachers. |
Not necessarily. When I first came to China in October 2001, it was as the very first FT for EF English First in the Hankou area of Wuhan. It was a brand-new school at that time, and it officially opened two weeks after my arrival - though that was because the opening was delayed for two weeks because the DoS did not arrive until ten days after I did. |
But, the important question here is, did you ever see their certificate (license) for hiring FT's? |
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Chris_Crossley
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Still in the centre of Furnace City, PRC, after eight years!!!
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:42 am Post subject: Re: A year before a school can hire FTs? Not in my experienc |
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| tw wrote: |
| Chris_Crossley wrote: |
| gulam2 wrote: |
| I beleive a school has to be in operation for at least a year before it can apply for a license to appoint foreign teachers. |
Not necessarily. When I first came to China in October 2001, it was as the very first FT for EF English First in the Hankou area of Wuhan. It was a brand-new school at that time, and it officially opened two weeks after my arrival - though that was because the opening was delayed for two weeks because the DoS did not arrive until ten days after I did. |
But, the important question here is, did you ever see their certificate (license) for hiring FT's? |
If I remember correctly, the school director did show me some kind of certificate, but it was, of course, entirely in Chinese. Since I did not know any better, I accepted what he said as truthful. Who knows? It could have been a certificate indicating the successful completion of a cookery course!
Having said that, I am pretty sure that the school did have the legal documentation, because I do not recall there being ever any trouble with the PSB as regards the employment of FTs there. The first visitation by the PSB to check up on the legal employment of FTs did not happen until several months after the school had opened, anyway, and nobody reported there being any trouble or problems.
Then again, both the school director in post at the time and the main investor in the school had considerable guanxi, so who knows if there was anything under the table whenever they and the PSB officers met in private for an hour or two? Several such long "meetings" took place during my two years at the school, but I was never in any way privy to the details. In any case, no FT was ever told that he or she ever had to leave in the wake of such a meeting. |
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gulam2
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:39 am Post subject: |
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What sort of a visa did the school get you?
It is likely that they were not legally entitled to hire foreigners.
If you were working;
1. On an old visa
2. On a tourist visa.
3. On a F visa
Then you were working illegally.
Did they get you a Foreign Experts Certificate?
There are actually only about 10,000 schools in China (SAFEA stats)
that can hire FT. There are over 600,000 FTs in China (SAFEA stats) |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| silarezo wrote: |
Hi! Does anybody know anything about EF Daqing??
And is it normal to have to sign the contract after arriving there? |
Hi Silvana,
Don't be too put off by the generalizations that are presented here about EF schools in general. Every EF school will be a bit different, despite the fact that the materials that they use, and the methodology used in teaching are the same. You are doing the right thing by researching the actual EF school that you are looking at working at. I suggest that you start a new thread asking about information for that particular school - EF Daqing. You will no doubt get a few replies with general concerns about EF schools in general, but that is unlikely to help you very much at all.
I would also suggest that you ask the person you are in contact with at that school to give you the contact details for a few present and past teachers. Try to get at least one past teacher as it can be helpful to know why that person left and whether there were any problems when he or she left the school.
Finally, as to your question about signing a contract after you arrive, well there are a few trains of thought on that issue.
Against - the first concern would be that without a contract you cannot get a Z visa which means that you will arrive in China on a tourist visa, with a promise from the school to change that into a Z visa after you have interviewed at the school and signed a contract. You cannot work legally on the tourist visa, and will need to be sure that the Z visa will actually arrive. The current and past teachers may be able to advise about whether that was an issue for them.
For - arriving pre-contract can sometimes be an advantage for you as it gives you a chance to check out the school and its staff before committing yourself. I think the ideal situation would be arriving as a tourist, checking out the school, signing a contract, going to do some travelling, and then returning to start work once the Z visa has come through. This wouldn't work for everyone, but is a definite advantage to signing a contract overseas site unseen, and is totally legal. |
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gulam2
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:48 am Post subject: |
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I am sorry I forgot to mention.
There is seldom (a few hundred a year maybe) trouble in China from working illegally. If you don't complain and all the "powers that be" are happy. No worries.
But you do not have a "legal leg to stand on".
Recently I got cheated out of a months salary by English World Club.
I was working on a tourist visa (they had promised me a Z visa).
When I did complain to the local Government and sought legal advice both told me "Actually your complaint is not valid in law as YOU were working illegally" Get the message. I could have got into trouble.
A good indication of legality is the Z visa and the Foreign Experts Certificate. |
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Babala
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1303
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:04 am Post subject: |
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Does anyone know the exact law concerning the issue of when a school is able to legally hire FT's. My understanding was the same as gulam2's which was that a school had to be up and running for 1 year before it was legally able to hire FT's.
Chris, could EF had gotten your visa by using another EF school's licence? I have seen that happen before. |
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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| Babala wrote: |
| Does anyone know the exact law concerning the issue of when a school is able to legally hire FT's. My understanding was the same as gulam2's which was that a school had to be up and running for 1 year before it was legally able to hire FT's. |
Well that's what I was told too, so we must be right. Though I should point out that some employers who have good guanxi with the education ministry can end up getting their license after about 10 or maybe even 9 months. |
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Chris_Crossley
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1797
Location: Still in the centre of Furnace City, PRC, after eight years!!!
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:04 am Post subject: Getting the right documentation to work at a new school |
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| gulam2 wrote: |
| What sort of a visa did the school get you? |
I received an official letter of invitation, so I got a Z visa from the PRC Embassy in London. Not only that, but the school bought me my flight ticket upfront, something that hardly ever happens nowadays.
| Babala wrote: |
| Chris, could EF [have] gotten your visa by using another EF school's licence? I have seen that happen before. |
I can't comment on that. All I know is that I managed to get my Z visa before leaving the UK, so I reckon that it was all kosher.
I have never had any problems whatsoever with obtaining the correct documentation either before entering or after entering the PRC, including the Foreign Expert Certificate and the Residence Permit for Foreigners. |
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no_exit
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 565
Location: Kunming
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:47 am Post subject: |
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I know there are other discussions going on in this thread, and I don't mean to draw attention away from that, but since this thread is, afterall, titled "EF," I thought I'd share my experience.
I recently started working part time for EF in Kunming, so I wanted to put in a few words. The center here pays well in comparison to other schools in KM, and so far they have been extremely helpful (they are providing me with a Z visa, even though as of now I am still part-time, and are paying most of the costs associated with obtaining it, which is something that many of the schools here do not do, especially for a part-timer), have answered all questions I have directly, have provided lots of resources for me to use, and have been very up front about what is expected of me as a teacher. The DOS is, as far as I can tell, a really outstanding guy, which, I suppose, makes a lot of difference.
I was very wary about joining up with EF based on everything which I have read here, but I must say that we can't paint all of the EF centers with the same brush. The full-time teachers I have met at EF seem very happy with the working environment there, and several have been with the school for quite some time. I have no doubt that some of the EF centers are just as bit as bad as everyone claims, but if I had blindly followed the "EF is the devil" line that seems to go around on this board, I might very well have missed out on what, for me, is a good opportunity for some well-paid work with a boss whom I actually like, and co-workers who are pleasant to deal with.
I second the suggestion that the bad centers should be singled out, rather than EF as a whole. With a franchise as large as EF, it is nearly impossible to generalize and say that EF as a whole is not a good place to work for. Warning prospective FTs about which places should be avoided is always a good thing, but giving good centers a bad reputation simply because of the name behind them is somewhat counterproductive.
Anyhow, carry on. |
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Babala
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1303
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:59 am Post subject: |
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no_exit
Thanks for that post. I think it's really important for us to show all the information about a school, both the good and the bad. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:46 pm Post subject: EF |
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| silarezo wrote: |
Hi! Does anybody know anything about EF Daqing??
And is it normal to have to sign the contract after arriving there?
I�m really confussed about taking the job now.. |
I know as much as this: “The DOS there did not know about a former EF Daqing teacher that I was about to hire. So, I had my assistant to call the CM (unavailable), and then the assistant CM. The Assistant CM there gave me a fairly negative and unprofessional REFERENCE on the teacher I was about to hire.” Despite the reference from EF Daqing, I hired that teacher and realized that she not only had her qualifications and experience, but much more of her enthusiasm and positive attitude to offer.
With EF English First, you should first sign at least a Letter of Intent before you get to the center, although I as the Director of Studies had my teachers sign their Contracts before they arrived. So, to answer your question, it is normal to sign EF Contracts after arriving.
I wish you good luck.
Cheers and beers |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:32 pm Post subject: EF |
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After learning from my teacher that EF Daqing stunk, I really couldn't keep quiet from March 2005.
| no_exit wrote: |
I recently started working part time for EF in Kunming, so I wanted to put in a few words. The center here pays well in comparison to other schools in KM, and so far they have been extremely helpful (they are providing me with a Z visa, even though as of now I am still part-time, and are paying most of the costs associated with obtaining it, which is something that many of the schools here do not do, especially for a part-timer), have answered all questions I have directly, have provided lots of resources for me to use, and have been very up front about what is expected of me as a teacher. The DOS is, as far as I can tell, a really outstanding guy, which, I suppose, makes a lot of difference.
The full-time teachers I have met at EF seem very happy with the working environment there, and several have been with the school for quite some time. I have no doubt that some of the EF centers are just as bit as bad as everyone claims, but if I had blindly followed the "EF is the devil" line that seems to go around on this board, I might very well have missed out on what, for me, is a good opportunity for some well-paid work with a boss whom I actually like, and co-workers who are pleasant to deal with.
Warning prospective FTs about which places should be avoided is always a good thing, but giving good centers a bad reputation simply because of the name behind them is somewhat counterproductive. |
I wish I had joined EF Kunming in 2001, but they might not have been open back then. I know that the present Assistant Academic Operations Manager Ian Oakes now in EF Head Office has worked for that EF center as well as he has for EF Fuzhou. He quickly scooted over to EF Kunming in 2002 due to EF Fuzhou’s Center Manager’s “dirty mission” against Ian in Fuzhou there.
I worked for EF Fuzhou and EF Huizhou between 2001-2004. I opened a “secret EF clone” for EF Fuzhou (Sunshine English) and a “secret EF clone” for EF Huihzou (Enjoy English).
My EF Fuzhou’s Center Manager (the same man that hassled Ian Oakes) went back on his word and my Contract and paid me 1,000 RMB less, so I left there. My EF Huizhou’s Center Manager “broke my second-year Director of Studies Contract without any prior discussion or warnings (I’ve written quite a bit about that on forums).
Besides those to ridiculous centers and their unhappy employees (EF Fuzhou had 8 teachers leaving in one month in 2003 and EF Huizhou had two dismissed teachers prior to my arrival in 2003 there), I have learnt about other ridiculous centers such as EF Zhuhai, EF Changsha, EF Xiamen and so on and on. When a new EF Shenzhen was about to open in 2003 or 2004 (sorry I am unsure about the date now), the teachers did not show up for the opening day. I wonder how that happened to the Head Office.
I am happy for the ones that are happy and I wish I had their experiences. However, I do not believe that the bad EF centers from a year, two years, three years ago have changed. Many of those EF centers in China run their businesses their own ways and they only wish that they did not have to follow the EF Head Office in Shanghai at all. They’d do anything in order to avoid their “royalty fees”. They’d do “anything” to keep their SECRETS AS SECRETS.
Cheers and beers
P.S. I have heard of some "EF Donguang" (secret EF clone?) that pays their teachers 4,000 RMB monthly (EF standard salary 5,500 RMB after probation) |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: EF |
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...
Last edited by Henry_Cowell on Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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gulam2
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:47 am Post subject: |
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Henry please behave. This thread is about EF not "typos"
The moderator has already given one warning - personal attacks are of no value to this, or indeed any, thread. |
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