Job Discussion Forums

[No Moss]

I'm thinking of teaching in China begining in August. Where is the better of these places to live, considering hourly rate, weather, transport, nightlife, (western) creature comforts, expat community, and cost of living? Any opinions? ( I do like Shenzhen's proximity to Hong Kong!)

[Minhang Oz]

I've only passed through Shenzhen twice, so don't know it. Yes, its very convenient to HK, most jobs there seem to pay well, reputed to be very expensive.
I live in Shanghai, where the pay can also be very good, though you may have to search harder. It can be as expensive as you want it to be - Western bars, cosmopolitan restaurant scene, West End and Broadway shows etc. Live like a local and you'll save heaps - and middle class Chinese here live a standard of life not far removed from their counterparts in the West. Lots of expats, many of them company execs. who don't mix with anyone but themselves. Some things haven't changed since J.G.Ballard's " Empire of the Sun". Lots of fellow teachers, foreign students also.
Weather? Spring and autumn always seem brief, mild, pleasant. Winter is cold, but rarely much lower than zero, and I quite like it. Summer? Hot and sticky, but no more so than the south.

[Roger]

Shanghai is the happening place, cosmopolitan, on the go, fast-paced and changing fast, getting westernised and being in China proper with its mystique if you crave it. Also, Shanghai has an international airport, several consulates and a lot more cultural activities.

Shenzhen: The only reason speaking in favour of SZ is its proximity to HK. It's a place with nothing from the past, a cultural desert. You will need to be able to go to HK although this is quite stressful considering the long queues at the checkpoints, and the long ride by train or bus. Besides, HK is not ten percent as fun as Shanghai is.

[MyTurnNow]

I'm on the Shanghai bandwagon too.
I concur that the only advantage Shenzhen has on all the dimensions you've listed is access to Hong Kong. I think HK is a LOT more fun than Shanghai myself, but Shanghai is pretty cool and on a mainland salary you won't be able to afford HK all that often anyway.

Shanghai, and the area around it is IMHO THE place to be in China.

I especially hate the weather in Shenzhen/Guangzhou. The Shanghai area is getting pretty steamy now, but Shenzhen is like this in March and it just gets worse. Ugh.

MT

[David Bowles]

While everybody's slating Shenzhen, I was teaching a mixed-nationality summer school class and I got them to work together making posters about their hometowns. We got the Eiffel Tower etc for Paris, the bullfights and festivals of Seville, Moscow's Red Square, and, for Shenzhen, a big motorway and a weird theme park with miniature plastic representations of famous buildings in other parts of the world. Erm...
Just to add to the general dissuasion, I knew a girl who grew up in Hong Kong. She said her family often went on shopping trips to Shenzhen, and whenever they went the sky was actually black.
Shanghai rocks.
Still, just to make for interesting reading it'd be nice if somebody defended Shenzhen. It can't be called a 'Special Economic Zone' without being pretty damn special, right?

[David Bowles]

While everybody's slating Shenzhen, I was teaching a mixed-nationality summer school class and I got them to work together making posters about their hometowns. We got the Eiffel Tower etc for Paris, the bullfights and festivals of Seville, Moscow's Red Square, and, for Shenzhen, a big motorway and a weird theme park with miniature plastic representations of famous buildings in other parts of the world. Erm...
Just to add to the general dissuasion, I knew a girl who grew up in Hong Kong. She said her family often went on shopping trips to Shenzhen, and whenever they went the sky was actually black.
Shanghai rocks.
Still, just to make for interesting reading it'd be nice if somebody defended Shenzhen. It can't be called a 'Special Economic Zone' without being pretty damn special, right?

[Bertrand]

I think people will be able to predict my ten cents. Go for Shenzhen because then you can go to Shanghai and HK for trips. You will earn enough to do it, too. Roger is right, Shenzhen (henceforth, SZ) does lack some 'soul' (it's a really new city; only, say, 20 years ago it was but a fishing village) but, I would argue, this holds true to some extent for any large city (that is, the part regarding cities lacking soul, not the fishing village part), and believe me, Shenzhen is large and getting larger. Everytime I go to SZ it seems to have sprouted 50 new appartment blocks and a new shopping centre. There is a lot of money there as many HKers buy holiday and/or weekend homes there. Also there are many Japanese and Korean businesses there. SZ has, by China's own figures, the country's highest per capita earnings (even higher than Shanghai and Beijing; yes, I was suprised myself; but remember that this is because many get salaries very close to those paid in HK either because they work for a HK firm based in SZ or simply because that job in SZ demands that salary).

SZ is known for its sleeze: whores galore, triads everywhere (just look at the herion and opium busts they make all the time there), and loads and loads of, how shall I say, 'entertainment assistance' in the form of tablets and 'da ma' ) (Sorry, my tones don't work on this forum, but those of you who know will know.)

The airport at SZ is okay and it is a simple matter to get cheap tickets to other concrete jungles around China. But, as you say, the primary advantage of SZ is simply its location. At the right time the Lo Wu border crossing can only take 30 mins (sometimes less) and the KCR (Kowloon Canton Railway) is clean, modern and efficient. You can be on HK island within 40 mins of having crossed the border. And remember, from there you can visit Macau, Zhuzhai, Hainan, and many islands peppered around HK. (Roger is right that the border CAN get very, very busy - it can take hours to get across at the wrong times - but you must predict when these times will be. Besides, it's easier now that two or three of the border crossings are open 24 hours).

Also, when working in SZ you can look for a proper (i.e., a non-maninland) job over in HK and you would be able to attend interviews when searching. The weather in SZ can be quite cold in winter (there is usually a few weeks of temps around 4 or 5 which is damn cold for southern China) and stinking hot and humid in summer. It can climb up to 35 in a hot year in summer and humidity can sit at 98% for days at a time. SZ can also be quite unsafe, but I have commented upon this at some length on another thread and have no wish to repeat myself. Suffice it to say: 'little heart' I.e., have your wits about you! The Chinese out in the countryside can be the nicest people in the world but there is something about large cities in China that, I think, brings out the worst in them (though maybe this too also holds for all people and all cities).

In fact, as regards Shanghai, I must say that when I used to ask students in China to name somewhere 'nice' in China, most would, without hesitation, reply 'Shanghai'. I would always look them in the eye and say 'You have never been there, have you?' I was not impressed by Shanghai and it just seemed like any other large Chinese city, though with more Starbucks and 'work out gyms' for the up and coming 'yuppie' Chinese (i.e., non-farmers ). It is full of people spitting everywhere, sneezing in others' faces, pushing and fighting on the trains, buses and lifts, there are taxis going crazy on the streets, and I was charged 200 Yuan for a pitcher of (luke warm) beer with ice stuck in it! Sick! I think the Shanghaiers are trying a touch too hard to be affluent and 'non-Chinese' and end up looking a bit silly.

[Minhang Oz]

Spitting, staring, shoving. Not exclusively Chinese characteristics, but certainly impressions any visitor to a Chinese city would come away with. For generations, medical "experts" have been telling people a morning "hoik" clears the throat of harmful bugs. Some - especially uneducated males and, for some reason older females - have taken to this advice enthusiastically. In the world expectorating championships, it would be a keen tussle between India and China. No one does it on the subway or buses though.
Staring is an exposure thing. The more laowai they see, the less they're interested. Shanghaiers who've progressed beyond elementary school realise that both the above behaviours are not cool, and being cool is next to godliness here. And MONEY is god by the way.

Shoving......yes, and unless you're damn good at it, you'll always be left standing on the subway, even if you were first in line. Queues magically dissolve when the train arrives. Chinese airports are amusing. Despite everyone having a booked seat, there is a mad crush when the boarding gate opens. Its the same when disembarking.

Traffic appears chaotic to the Western eye in most developing countries. Shanghai has 16 million plus souls, most of them going somewhere. Cyclists and pedestrians get the most grief, due to their careless, impetuous behaviour. Other than that, you'll rarely see more than a fender bender. Road rage is unknown. Taxis are clean, comfortable, cheap, and the drivers are only interested in getting you from A to B. If they take the "long way", you probably haven't made yourself understood.
A local newspaper story involved some visiting merchant seamen who beat up a taxi driver and trashed his cab. They'd been out drinking, and gave the driver a card which they thought had the dockside address for their ship. Turns out they gave him the wrong card - it was for a Mao Ming Lu bar instead! Incensed at this Oriental trickery, they took to the luckless driver. I think their shipping company settled out of court.

Sneezing in each others faces? I've missed out on this, but I've only been in the city two years.
As for 200 rmb for a jug of warm beer [insult to injury], I can only surmise they saw the previous poster coming. That would normally cover four or five good restaurant meals, with lashings of icey Suntory beer thrown in. Just ask for prices first, unless you're a regular. Clearly Bertrand wasn't, and didn't.

ps No Moss; Its easy to find Western food items in the bigger supermarkets, especially the Western owned ones such as Carrefour, Metro, and soon Walmart. These places also have bakeries that make real bread - not the yellow, sweet stuff that applies in other cities [with notable exceptions]. Imported wines and spirits abound, often at surprisingly low prices - JW Red Label at under 90 rmb for example.

[No Moss]

Thank you for the informative (and rather eloquent) about both locations. I will say that I did some research about air pollution, and Shenzhen had better air than Shanghai. I have had people tell me that Shanghai is from 100 to 1,000,000 times more fun than Shenzhen .

[Linda L.]

I have worked in Shanghai for the last two years and I think it is the greatest city anywhere. But I have only been to Shanghai so my perspective is a little narrow. I come from West Virginia -----

A few suggestions -

Purchase an electric bike from 1,400 to 2,600 rmb. They are great fun and give needed mobility. Taxis are expensive, 10 rmb to start. Buses are crowded and dirty. Chingway or tube is great and cheap if you happen to be close to one. A regular bike just does not have the needed range. Do not worry about accidents. They happen to everyone and everyone seems to walk away. I have had three so far.

Shanghai is a liberal city. There are a lot of women looking for women, which suits me just fine. Shopping until you drop is my favorite indoor sport.

People's Square and the Municipal Museum are favorite meeting places.

There is an English book store and DVD's are so cheap!

[Minhang Oz]

Those electric bikes are great - probably blocked by the auto lobby in the West though. Noise and emission free [like moi really], and I've seen models as low as 800 rmb.
Don't underestimate the dangers for cyclists though. I've seen a few bodies just in the last week, and some other messes where I don't think the rider could have survived. I think most of these are rural migrants not used to traffic though. You'll see them do the most suicidal things. Lots of main roads have chained off bicycle lanes.

ps Watch out for bikes and motorbikes on the footpath. These are REALLY dangerous.

[Steiner]

I vote for Shanghai, too. I am maybe the least qualified person to give an opinion as I've never been to Shanghai and only been to Shenzhen once, but Shenzhen is a pit. Of course I probably just had a bad day and saw the bad parts, but I've made it a goal of mine to never go back unless I am forced at gunpoint. I'd rather work for 2000rmb in a town with no electricity than for 20000 in Shenzhen.

[arioch36]

Having just spent four days in Shanghai, I like it alot, but..as a teacher, you can easily spend too much money here. I think probably better then Beijing as far as "the Arts" like plays, performances, etc. I know I could easily spend more then I make in Shanghai. More then I could say about most Chinese cities I have been to. (Kaifeng has character but is CHEAP)


Of course, it is all about finding a niche where you feel good. I've had better luck at finding good, reasonably priced restaurants in Beijing. Who knows, another person might have had the opposite reaction. But I've gotta believe almost any one in Shanghai who tries can find a niche that he likes. If I was rich, and only cared about my fleshly pleasures in life, Shanghai would definitely be number one in China. As a country person biased against all big cities, Shanghai is nice!

[naturegirl321]

I've been to Shanghai, never to Shenzhen. I think that Shanghai is very cosmopolitain and makes an easy transition from West to east. Very diverse, something that I miss living in rural China.

Shenzhen appeals to me, it's somewhere I'd like to go. Going to HK every once in a while, sounds very nice.

[Debalky]

My G-friend told me that Shenzhen has lost it "special economic zone" status. According to her all the 'best and brightest' are heading to Shanghai. I've never been to Shenzhen, but even the chinese seem to think it's a boring, hollow place.
I've been in Shanghai once (first day in China), and it was big and scary. It did look "happening" however. You better get yourself paid though, because i think it's really expensive.
later