Job Discussion Forums

nomadder · Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:12 pm Post subject:

I prefer our kind of borrowing to the J-style.

Ex: terebi, conbini, etc.

Henry_Cowell · Joined: 27 May 2005 Posts: 3352 Location: Berkeley

PAULH · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan

Henry_Cowell · Joined: 27 May 2005 Posts: 3352 Location: Berkeley

PAULH,

Like I said in a much earlier post in this thread: This sort of thing happens ALL THE TIME with people who are using their L1 in an L2 environment. The L2 lexis is used sometimes unconsciously and sometimes consciously in the L1. It isn't 'rude' and it doesn't necessarily intentionally discriminate against those who don't understand. It's just a natural (and not very special or unique) facet of language use.

I'm still not sure why you find this so problematic in Japan. Can you please explain? Have you not experienced the same thing elsewhere? I know I have.

chixdiggit · Joined: 21 May 2003 Posts: 60 Location: ROK

You both have a point as some people do this unconsciously but I've also seen the phenomenon Paul described and it is very conscious and, at times, rude. Perhaps the majority of the time it is unconscious and innocent, but there are those who take pleasure in a sort of exclusivity as Paul described. In the case of the latter, I find it more tacky than anything else.

Chix

Henry_Cowell · Joined: 27 May 2005 Posts: 3352 Location: Berkeley

chixdiggit,

Okay, so you feel excluded from certain discussions. Or you feel that some people are excluding others from certain discussions. This is something that we can do with language, and it's done all the time.

Even IN ENGLISH with native English speakers, we can purposely exclude others by use of register, lexis, jargon and even secret codewords -- all in English. Is it wrong or 'rude'? Well, it all depends on which role you have in the discourse! But to condemn it in all cases is simply unrealistic. It's going to be done, and sometimes you (or people you like) are going to be left out. Life isn't always fair.

PAULH originally implied that ANY use of Japanese words in English discourse was somehow exclusive and consciously superior. His poll asked, "Should foreigners in Japan use Japanese words instead of English words?" I think the answer to that is a big "Why not?"

After that initial question however, he zeroed in on only such 'offensive' words as gaijin. But check the Indonesia board. Folks there throw around the equivalent term bule with abandon. I don't think anyone has ever complained about or even mentioned it. It's simply very natural for foreigners living in Indonesia to do. Before the term bule became popular, English speakers did the same with the earlier term londo. Those who didn't know those words soon discovered their meanings. And life went on....

Sour Grape · Joined: 10 May 2005 Posts: 241

osakajojo · Joined: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 229

PAULH · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan

Sour Grape · Joined: 10 May 2005 Posts: 241

My hair is unmanageable and always terrible.

But no, not really. I quite enjoy reading about other people's pet peeves - just surprised you made such a generalisation, that's all.

Lynn · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 696 Location: in between

shuize · Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Posts: 1270

The term "gaijin" doesn't bother me that much. On the other hand, when I hear non-Japanese throw the term "gaijins" around, it grates worse than fingernails being slowly dragged down a chalkboard.

But to answer the OP's question, I find it only slightly less annoying when native English speakers pepper their conversations with Japanese words. A Japanese word here or there, no problem. But not every damn sentence. In such cases, I have to struggle against the urge to say, "Hey, do you mind picking one language and sticking with it? That way you only sound half as stupid." Fortunately, in my experience I've found that the better someone actually speaks Japanese the less they tend to do this.

nomadder · Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:25 pm Post subject:

Paulh seems to have a prob with those outside of Japan (ie supergaijins) yet how does he know what they do as he hasn't left the country in ?? years. Those on forums are just trying to join in with the lingo or maybe they lived in Japan before or studied Japanese.

As for the idea that you shouldn't use a few Jwords in English just because you're not Level 2 Japanese or something I say, maybe no students in Beginner or Elementary English should say anything in English then.

rai · Joined: 19 Jun 2005 Posts: 119 Location: Osaka

To reiterate what's been said above: I think there are some Japanese words that are commonly used by foreigners in Japan. Words like keitai, man (do YOU say "10,000" all the time?!), genki, warui, etc. It doesn't bother me, because my friends in Osaka seem to have an implicit understanding of which words everyone knows and uses. Paul, you in Kyoto? There seem to be a MILLION foreigners in Kyoto, with a high turnover rate, so maybe the problem you describe is worse there.

My pet peeve is people who say, "Two man." It's seems to be a JET thing, and I don't know WHY it bothers me so much! If you're gonna say "man" just say "ni-man" for crying out loud! most people know numbers at least!

Also one of my best friends (actually my BEST friend, next to my girlfriend) has rockin' Japanese skills, and has a tendency to use too much kanji in her keitai e-mails (Sorry! Cell phone text messages Very Happy

). Her other friends can read them all, but not me! I have to keep replying, "Um, What does X kanji mean?" That's a bit frustrating...