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Ryumicko
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 37
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 Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 2:24 pm Post subject: Positive comments PLEASE! |
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I read a distressing amount of negative posts about the EFL/TEFL/TESOL industry.
There seems to be a general sense of it not being a legitimate aspiration to want to be an english teacher.
Also, there appears to be a general opinion that i have no chance of finding work teaching in Japan without a degree. I qualify for a Working Holiday Visa (Aussie ), and im pretty much willing to do any job, save prostitution or drug dealing, but i kinda get the sense that its hard to get ANY work in Japan even if you have the visa .
What is really the case? Surely Japan would not issue working holiday visas unless they were confident that someone even slightly driven could get work without too much fuss. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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Ryumicko
I will write more later when i have time but you may want to have a look at this in the meantime.
http://www.eltnews.com/features/special/015a.shtml
Paul
PS Hope we didnt put you off studying Japanese.
PS there are teaching professionals like myself and Glenski and a few others who make a career out of ESL and even support families but my general feeling is that the majority of people in the industry at the eikaiwa level are part of a transient temporary population and there is no real sense of commitment to Japan, to their students (except on a superficial level and as long as they get paid) but there is blame to be had on both sides for the discontent antagonism and bitterness and the generally cuthroat nature of the teaching game here. |
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canuck
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| PAULH wrote: |
| are part of a transient temporary population and there is no real sense of commitment to Japan, to their students (except on a superficial level and as long as they get paid) but there is blame to be had on both sides for the discontent antagonism and bitterness and the generally cuthroat nature of the teaching game here. |
And this doesn't apply to university teachers too? (this isn't meant as a cheap shot directed at you by the way) It's easy to brush people in conversation schools, but I know a lot of university teachers that are also what you described.
There are a lot of dedicated conversation school teachers too. There are a lot of what you described of both conversation school teachers, university teachers, public and high school teachers etc. |
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Ryumicko
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:27 pm Post subject: Thanks. |
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Not put off Japanese, maybe just a little worried about rocking up in japan without a job.
I guess as far as the degree thing goes, the point is that I WANT to go to university, i just have no idea what i want to study, and i feel i should see a bit more of the world before i get bogged down in a 4 year commitment.
It is frustrating to constantly hear from people in the industry that im "trying to take the easy way" by not having a degree, when really its not easier at all. I pride myself on having a serious work ethic, and it worries mt to think that maybe work ethic has little to do with getting a job in Japan.
You said that there are many in the TEFL industry who have little commitment to japan or the work. For me i beleive i will apply myelf to anything that gives me a chance.
Sorry to sound meloncholy...
Please call me Mick  (Ryumicko is a dodgy alias because "Mick" was already taken).
Last edited by Ryumicko on Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ryumicko
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:33 pm Post subject: one more thing. |
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| I forgot to mention that money is of very little concern to me. |
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canuck
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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People get jobs on working holiday visas all the time. My suggestion, take a CELTA or TEFL course, then come over here. I would also try to get a job over the internet before you came. That would minimize any risks. Do you 18 months and then figure out what you want to do, beit go to university or do something else. It's possible to get a job on a WHV.
I know many people in Osaka that have done it successfully. |
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Ryumicko
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject: Thank you Canuk! |
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THAT is what i needed to hear.  |
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Ryumicko
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject: On another note... |
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What do you know about the possibilities of self sponsorship? For example, building up enough private students to sponsor yourself for a business visa.
I have heard of this being done before. |
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kitano
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:38 pm Post subject: self sponsorship |
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| As for your question about self sponsorship by building up private students, I just asked the Kobe immigration office and they said no. Basically they want some kind of contract to from a reputable business to guarantee you will have a stable income, privates don't count. |
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Ryumicko
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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right...
thanks |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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You want positive comments. Does that mean you only want to hear the rosy side of things? How about what's real, ok? Will that do?
With no degree, you are only going to get a job here with the working holiday visa, unless you do what's necessary to get a student visa, dependent visa, spouse visa, culural visa, or work visa. Only the last one requires a bachelor's degree (or 3 years of work experience). And, the WHV was not designed for full-time work, you realize (although you can get jobs with FT hours on it). The WHV is, as the name implies, a visa for people (with or without degrees) on holiday wishing to support themselves while they sightsee. That's the reason it has such a short lifespan. There are people (and employers) who abuse the WHV system, however.
You wrote:
| Quote: |
| i just have no idea what i want to study, and i feel i should see a bit more of the world before i get bogged down in a 4 year commitment. |
Well, that's great. No problem. The WHV is just for you. However, your attitude towards getting a degree is reflected in your words "bogged down". Perhaps this was an innocent remark, perhaps not. Just bear in mind that for work in Japan, unless you can prove 3 years of work experience (a sort of commitment in itself), what is needed to get the work visa is the degree (a sign of commitment that immigration and most employers want, whether the prospective teacher cares about it or not, and whether the prospective teacher feels this is fair).
You will find that most teaching jobs in Japan don't require any sort of TEFL certification. Sad, but true. People without the experience benefit from such things, in my opinion, so don't necessarily ignore getting one.
Self-sponsorship has its merits, but you need to have worked here for a year first before you get it, and it is nothing more than a work visa, which still requires the degree. You are "self-sponsored" only because you can prove you have PT jobs, not FT ones, strung together to make enough money not to be a burden on society (the actual figure varies from immigration office to office). However, private lessons don't count as stable sources of such income; you will need to provide proof that your income stems from schools or companies. Private lessons are unstable and can quit on you tomorrow.
My advice (here is the positive stuff)?
1. Get TEFL certification. It will help you to understand how to create, present, correct, and troubleshoot lesson plans. Even if your employer provides the training, teaching format and texts, you will still need this. Who knows what the future holds? You may find the next job (or your private lessons) have no format or text to guide you.
2. Come here on the WHV. Spend as much time as possible learning about teaching and making contacts, because after your 18 months on WHV, you are finished. Being here is a great opportunity to study the culture and language, but with any FT job, you will not have as much time as you think. A job is still a job here, and employers don't care if you show up sick.
3. Get a degree. You can bypass the work visa regulations with 3 years of work experience, but by and large I've never heard of anyone who has actually done this, and most employers still want their teachers to have degrees, even if they are not related to teaching. Don't complain about how silly this may sound. Just adapt to it and go with the flow.
You wrote:
| Quote: |
| It is frustrating to constantly hear from people in the industry that im "trying to take the easy way" by not having a degree, when really its not easier at all. I pride myself on having a serious work ethic, and it worries mt to think that maybe work ethic has little to do with getting a job in Japan. |
I think any comments directed at getting a job in Japan are not to be taken so personally. You must realize that the market is flooded with people with WHVs and with people that have degrees unrelated to teaching. Tons of people come here thinking they can fund their sightseeing or cultural experiences by parking their butts in a classroom and not taking the job seriously. You sound sincere enough not to be one of them. Just realize that you will be surrounded by people who have a different outlook. And, what do employers actually want? Well, many will tell you that all they want is a warm native English speaking body. They want to mold them the way they like. Largely, this is true, and it is the state of English education in Japan for the most part. Learn about it while you are here. I suggest starting with the archives section of www.eltnews.com (http://www.eltnews.com/archives/index.shtml), and especially article 15 (http://www.eltnews.com/features/special/015a.shtml), The Power of Perceptions: a look at professionalism at private language schools in Japan.
Best of luck to you. Come back here often. Japan and many of us will still be here. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:00 am Post subject: |
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Just to add some positive comments.
1. I got into EFL in Japan late in life (41) with no experience or education in the field. I HAD a bachelor's and master's degree, but not related to EFL, so I was eligible for a work visa, but I got a TESL certificate before I embarked on this, and it was a good move.
2. I scoured the Internet for info for 6 months, compiling data and opinions, lurking on boards like this, etc. When I made my first application, I got "lucky". They flew to the USA to my city and interviewed me, and I got the job. They paid airfare and rent, too (miraculous, but that was the resultt of my diligence and luck).
3. I spent 3.5 years at that conversation school. No increase in pay, but it was a fairly enjoyable experience, and one of the other two teachers became a good friend. I also got an excellent job reference from the school. I learned a lot about teaching in those years.
4. I then got into teaching private lessons and doing PT work at a high school. Learned a lot of things about both of those sides of the business, too, and made quite a few contacts with the private lessons. Salary even went up slightly.
5. I've been at the same private HS since then, working FT. Amazing experience (good and bad). Salary definitely went up. And, I've made some really good friends, Japanese and foreign, at the school.
6. I've met the woman who became my wife. Not everyone has this good fortune, but it's definitely a benefit of living in a land where you enjoy the appeal of the opposite sex.
7. I've lurked and posted on these boards for the 7 years that I've taught in Japan. I'd like to think I've earned a fairly good reputation for dispensing information and advice.
8. My health has improved since I came to Japan. Walking to train stations a lot caused me to lose weight, and I have enjoyed eating the healthier foods (American snacks and meals are way too fatty and oversized).
9. I've learned lots about the culture (not nearly enough about the language), and I've seen quite a bit of Hokkaido, where I've lived all this time. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:13 am Post subject: Re: On another note... |
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| Ryumicko wrote: |
What do you know about the possibilities of self sponsorship? For example, building up enough private students to sponsor yourself for a business visa.
I have heard of this being done before. |
Glenski did not mention this, but a business investor visa is a completely separate visa from an instructors visa and as such you can not teach English on it.
Aside from the fact that on an 18 month working holiday visa you wont build up enough private students to live on (what will you do with them when you leave and where do yuo plan to teach them?) a business visa is for enterpreneurs, established businessmen who want to set up a company or a japan branch of a foreign company. It requires you have a registered business address and you have to hire 2 japanese employees full time to get the business visa. You will need to show immigration your books showing cashflow and income.
The business visa is not designed for teaching private students by a self-styled self employed language teacher after a year in Japan, and there are a lot more hoops to jump through than on a teaching visa.
As well as Glenski's comments below I will also recommend if you come here, or before you come you make a serious and committed effort to start learning Japanese. You will not need Japanese on the work holiday visa application nor will employers ask for it as a condition of employment. The reason I say this, is that far too many 'teachers walk into a classroom, sit and chat for sixty minutes with students and then privately complain (or not so privately, within earshot of bilingual office staff) about the poor level of students english. Some even make jokes at students expense.
Six months of you studying Japanese and memorising Kanji will give you a much greater appreciation of what its like for your beginner students to sit in an English lesson, try and speak English, and the teacher is secretly laughing at them. You will learn yourself how people learn languages and the difficulty that most people have coming to grips with a foreign language. You take your English ability for granted as a native speaker but for most Japanese learning to speak English is a nerve-wracking, expensive and rather soul destroying exercise.
Once you know how it feels it will make you more empathetic with your students and will help you understand how to teach language rather than simply speak it as a native speaker. |
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Ryumicko
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:32 pm Post subject: Thanks guys |
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Thankyou for all the great advice guys. I by no means want to only get the rosy side of the equation, that would be self destructive in the long run.
What you guys have said, which is that i should get a WHV and work no problem, has been a great reassurance that I can acheive what I want to.
Basically, I have high ambition. I fully intend to go to university, and make that commitment.
I was originally going to try and get into the hospitality industry in japan, as that has been my main work experience so far. After reading a lot of forums it occured to me that getting teaching work would probably be plausible. More to the point, I think I would greatly enjoy teaching, as it involves so much learning. So my motivation to work as a teacher has nothing to do with money, im solely interested in working in Japan (to learn Japanese) and not starving.
Yes, a TESOL/TEFL/EFL certificate is coming my way. Im pretty keen on doing some lessons for free in Sydney before I leave for Japan, to get my experience up.
After Japan (how ever long im there for) i want to travel somewhere else, anywhere. Teaching english seems to be a great ticket to any country.
The self sponsorship stuff was an after thought, though if I wanted to, I would find a way. 
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Ryumicko
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: On another note... |
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| Quote: |
Six months of you studying Japanese and memorising Kanji will give you a much greater appreciation of what its like for your beginner students to sit in an English lesson, try and speak English, and the teacher is secretly laughing at them. You will learn yourself how people learn languages and the difficulty that most people have coming to grips with a foreign language. You take your English ability for granted as a native speaker but for most Japanese learning to speak English is a nerve-wracking, expensive and rather soul destroying exercise.
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I have studied Japanese for 2 years and French for 6 months. Thats part of the reason I want to be a good langauge teacher.
Also, I should have mentioned that I regularly engage in conversation exchange with Japanese backpackers in Sydney, so I already have a reasonable idea of what its like to teach someone english. It has been both hard, and very rewarding so far. |
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