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moonraven · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 3094

I heard the same expressions in Spanish in Latin America.

Hearing them did not stop me from facilitating the changes that I could--and for which folks were embarrassingly grateful.

dmb · Joined: 12 Feb 2003 Posts: 8397

It doesn't stop us from trying Twisted Evil

moonraven · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 3094

I am very relieved to hear that.

We had a saying in the 60s: If you're not part of the solution--you're part of the problem.

dmb · Joined: 12 Feb 2003 Posts: 8397

A young(ish) dmb *beep*

Cleopatra · Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:39 pm Post subject:

Having worked 3 years as a real live teacher in Saudi Arabia, I agree with VS, DMB and globalnomad.

Arabs are world-class experts in telling people what they want to hear. I don't say this in order to propagate a "stereotype" but because my experience in this part of the world has shown it to be true - as a generalisation, of course, obviously it is not true for every single Arab or Saudi. I too have had the experience of giving 'study skills' mini-courses to Arab students: the students nodded earnestly when I advised them to plan their studies over the course of a semester, not just to cram 2 days before the exam, and agreed with me about the wisdom of active reading and note-taking.

And then, no sooner was I out the door and what happened? They went back to their old ways, which, however pedagogically unsound and counterproductive they may appear to us, still make sense to them. I don't consider this type of behaviour especially "Arab" - it is human nature to be fiercely attached to the norms of your own culture, the ones with which you were raised. By the time we get to these students, they have already had 15 years of schooling behind them. It is extremely difficult to effect any substantial change at an age at which people's personalities are already formed, and their habits deeply ingrained. It's not that I don't applaud you for trying, or that I think your efforts are going to be entirely in vain. The way I see it, anything approaching a "Western-style" education is so new and so alien in the Arab world (at least in the Gulf countries) that it is simply too much to expect this generation to take it on board in any meaningful way. A more realistic way to look at things, in my view, is to regard what we are doing as laying the foundations for the future - something which is of great importance for its own sake. Perhaps when these students' kids go on to school, the seeds sown by their parents' exposure to new educational ideas will bear fruit in the next generation. Or maybe even the one after that. Major changes in such culturally-bound areas as education don't happen in the space of a single generation.

moonraven · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 3094

In that case, you (plural, generalized to this forum and excluding the folks who have PMd me for more information) should maybe be applauding what I am doing--instead of sneering. I saw the same attitude coming from the majority of posters who responded to my comments that they have attributed to Arab students--except that most of you did not try to ingratiate yourselves by telling me "what I wanted to hear", and then going back to your old ways, but were downright rude and hostile. None of my students have been rude. And much less have they been hostile.

Maybe because many folks tend to value more what they have to PAY for, and dismiss it if it is given to them without charge, teacher trainers here are already incorporating many of the nuts and bolts of my methodology--and are having positive results.

Of course there is no magic genie that is going to change ingrained negative habits overnight. And it is true that progressive pedagogy is basically laying the foundations of new systems for the next generations.

I believe this is a Chinese saying, not coined in the 1960s: A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.

dmb: That saying about problem and solution was applied across the board to everything.

This afternoon my students discussed stereotyping of Arabs--especially as terrorists--and the real reason behind the mistaken killing of a Brazilian man on the London tube 10 days ago. Thanks to Dave's for the idea.

Henry_Cowell · Joined: 27 May 2005 Posts: 3352 Location: Berkeley

Cleopatra · Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:47 pm Post subject:

dmb · Joined: 12 Feb 2003 Posts: 8397

web fishing · Joined: 02 Jun 2005 Posts: 95

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

As educators we are all doing our share, but some of us are more "movers and shakers" [pro-active] than others. That is why curricula; teaching methods are forever changing.

Cleopatra · Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:07 pm Post subject:

EnglishBrian · Joined: 19 May 2005 Posts: 189

Cleopatra - I'm giving you a round of applause in front of my computer.

Cleopatra · Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:11 pm Post subject:

Why thank you, Brian!

(taking a virtual bow!)

globalnomad2 · Joined: 23 Jul 2005 Posts: 562

Moonraven, looking back at the history of this thread, it appears you cannot reply to a sharp but reasonable question (e.g., English Brian's "Are these students or lab mice?") without becoming pompous, arrogant and condescending. I am not any more impressed with your background than with VS's or Cleopatra's or my own (I can speak for myself: two related MA/MSEd's; 18 years total in Malaysia, Japan, Saudi and the UAE, plus some US time). I've never been to South or Central America but I can tell you, if I were hired for a similar "consultant" job there, I would listen more and lecture less.