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fox1
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 268
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 Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 2:28 am Post subject: Can you be too polite!!? |
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hey 
I'm kind of wondering...
is there such a thing here, (in general, such as at a convenience store, a supermarket, internet bar or whatever) of being too polite!??
I'm bowing left, right and centre... and I mean it.. I am not doing it sarcastically! 
Same with 'arigato gozaimas'... I say it quite often |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:57 am Post subject: Re: Can you be too polite!!? |
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| fox1 wrote: |
hey
I'm kind of wondering...
is there such a thing here, (in general, such as at a convenience store, a supermarket, internet bar or whatever) of being too polite!??
I'm bowing left, right and centre... and I mean it.. I am not doing it sarcastically!
Same with 'arigato gozaimas'... I say it quite often |
There are levels of bowing depending on the situation
Informal: a quick nod of the head like when you acknowledge someone or meet someone you know.
Formal bow. Bow at the waist with head at a 60 degree angle to rest of your body. See this at weddings funerals and graduation ceremonies
Bow too low and you will appear obsequious and grovelling.
Seppuku bow. When someone like JR which caused the death of 100 people the honchos all fail on their swords and bow deeply. 90 degree bow where head is parallel to the floor. For most foreigners you will never do this. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Can you be too polite!!? |
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| fox1 wrote: |
Same with 'arigato gozaimas'... I say it quite often |
If you are in Osaka just say
"domo" (informal) or ooki-ni (Osaka-ben)
Arigato is fine too in polite situations |
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fox1
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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cool. thanks
but what I'm wondering really is .......is bowing to just about each and every shop assistant seen by Japanese as excessive?
Like... if I'm at, say, an internet cafe.... (not a terrific example, but, anyway, it works!) I do bow. Now, part of my bowing stems from the fact I kinda like bowing anyway. I do it a tiny bit back home. It's also cos I can't say much at the moment, so I feel, perhaps, it makes up for it or something. Naturally enough I'm not doing the real low bowing in these situations. As with most people, I have common sense .... My level of bowing at the moment seems to be alright, but I'm just wondering if it's possible to be TOO polite (by which I'm talking about even getting an Ebi Burger at the fast food place, and going the normal short bow. It doesn't feel excessive but maybe it is seen to be.)
(on the other hand, in China, in many situations, excessive politeness is rather frowned upon and seen as being 'stuck up') |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Fox, do you bow when talking on the phone? Thats a sign you have been here too long.
Cut back on the bowing and arigatoes. You dont have to bow at McD's and fast food restaurants.
Only bow when someone does some service for you like when you have to repay a favor. You will ruin your back otherwise.
Paul
| fox1 wrote: |
cool. thanks
but what I'm wondering really is .......is bowing to just about each and every shop assistant seen by Japanese as excessive?
Like... if I'm at, say, an internet cafe.... (not a terrific example, but, anyway, it works!) I do bow. Now, part of my bowing stems from the fact I kinda like bowing anyway. I do it a tiny bit back home. It's also cos I can't say much at the moment, so I feel, perhaps, it makes up for it or something. Naturally enough I'm not doing the real low bowing in these situations. As with most people, I have common sense .... My level of bowing at the moment seems to be alright, but I'm just wondering if it's possible to be TOO polite (by which I'm talking about even getting an Ebi Burger at the fast food place, and going the normal short bow. It doesn't feel excessive but maybe it is seen to be.)
(on the other hand, in China, in many situations, excessive politeness is rather frowned upon and seen as being 'stuck up') |
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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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My wife often criticizes me for being too polite in Japanese. I simply respond that I'm generally nice to clerks in my native country and refuse to change that aspect about myself.
That said however, you do seem to be coming off as a bit over-bearingly nice. With shop clerks a simple "domo" or at most "arigato" is more enough. Leave off the "gozaimasu" unless you are really really thankful for something, or are talking to a superior.
As far as bowing goes, everytime you bow they have to bow. You may think you are being polite, but you are being a pain in the ass to them. Unless you consciously want to humble yourself a simple head bob will do just fine.
You may think it is a polite country but that is only so when dealing with superiors or with new people who you expect to form some sort of relationship with. Clerks and waiters are generally spit upon. |
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markle
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 1316
Location: Out of Japan
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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I know what you mean, I bow like it going outta fashion and and a quick arigatogozaimashiTA! all the time no matter how lowly the person but rather than being overly polite its more just abject relief that they gave me what I wanted and didn't thump me for being an ignorant ass.
I s'pose I'll lose it once I get better at the language and everything. |
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ajarn
Joined: 15 Mar 2003
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| guest of Japan wrote: |
| You may think it is a polite country but that is only so when dealing with superiors or with new people who you expect to form some sort of relationship with. Clerks and waiters are generally spit upon. |
Exactly, take note how the average Japanese treats a clerk in the local convenience store or waiters and waitresses in restaurants. There seems to be this belief that if you are paying for something it gives you right to treat whoever is providing the service like scum. The classic superiority complex borne out of a feeling of inferiority.
Like guest of japan I've always said thankyou to anyone who provided a service and that hasn't changed since I've been here. However bowing is uncalled for. Would you shake the hand of your local checkout operator back home for packing your groceries? |
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fox1
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| guest of Japan wrote: |
My wife often criticizes me for being too polite in Japanese. I simply respond that I'm generally nice to clerks in my native country and refuse to change that aspect about myself.
That said however, you do seem to be coming off as a bit over-bearingly nice. With shop clerks a simple "domo" or at most "arigato" is more enough. Leave off the "gozaimasu" unless you are really really thankful for something, or are talking to a superior.
As far as bowing goes, everytime you bow they have to bow. You may think you are being polite, but you are being a pain in the ass to them. Unless you consciously want to humble yourself a simple head bob will do just fine.
You may think it is a polite country but that is only so when dealing with superiors or with new people who you expect to form some sort of relationship with. Clerks and waiters are generally spit upon. |
ok... well
yes and no
thank you for that.
a few things I should say.... When I say that I 'bow' to people at, say, a supermarket or a 7-11..... I really mean a real small nod of the head. Essentially, that is all I am talking about... ..and asking about
I understand the bit about 'over-bearingly nice...'... but it's not really all that. I'm just giving a tiny nod of the head ..and I mean tiny, BUT: 'nod of the head' it is nonetheless. Yeah, so basically, the nod is the thing I'm asking about. Is it too much, or kinda OK? it feels natural enough and comes off natural enough from my side.
So.. yeah, I understand a simple 'domo' is enough. But I guess, I am now in a habit ...so when I would say 'domo' USUALLY (it's not like a military drill ) , I'd do the tiny nod of the head. <Maybe I should say, that's all I was asking about. This thread's kinda expanded into something big... anyway... that's cool and everything, but, essentially, it was only ever: 'is the tiny nod of the head at 7-11 too too much?'. (Remember also: I am new to this country, I have lived in many countries, the internet is a good place to ask inane questions and you gotta love it for that , and moreover, I do kinda want to appreciate local sensibilities)
I don't know about the 'you may think it is a polite country' stuff. I see what I see. Of course I see the different treatment of people. I don't have a problem with Japan is basically in the end what it comes down to frmo my point of view |
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fox1
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| ajarn wrote: |
| guest of Japan wrote: |
| You may think it is a polite country but that is only so when dealing with superiors or with new people who you expect to form some sort of relationship with. Clerks and waiters are generally spit upon. |
Exactly, take note how the average Japanese treats a clerk in the local convenience store or waiters and waitresses in restaurants. There seems to be this belief that if you are paying for something it gives you right to treat whoever is providing the service like scum. The classic superiority complex borne out of a feeling of inferiority.
Like guest of japan I've always said thankyou to anyone who provided a service and that hasn't changed since I've been here. However bowing is uncalled for. Would you shake the hand of your local checkout operator back home for packing your groceries? |
.........
the kinda biggest miscon. about this thread is the meaning of 'bow'. I mean, the little nod of the head........> that's kinda all I've been doin'................> spose it's a 'bow'... 'bow-ish'... whatever the term |
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