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British English is annoying!
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Stephen



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why in American English is volume considered an adequate alternative for either (a) a decent range of vocabulary, or (b) reasoned argument?

Stephen

Incidentally, we say herbs because it has an h in it.
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Capergirl



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 1232
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PanamaTeacher wrote:

Roses are red,
Violets are blue.
Caper's just right
For me, not you!


or

I like her hair,
I like her smile.
I wish she'd come
And stay a while.




Was that just for me? Wink Very Happy
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Brooks



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1369
Location: Sagamihara

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

on the BBC when they talk about sports it is called `sport`. Why?
They talk about more than one sport.

Brooks
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Bertrand



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 293

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephen wrote:
Why in American English is volume considered an adequate alternative for either (a) a decent range of vocabulary, or (b) reasoned argument?


Because they have no imagination. I think it is the effects of all those years swearing loyality to their flag (which is termed 'propaganda' when kids of other nationalities are made to do it).

Stephen wrote:
Incidentally, we say herbs because it has an h in it.


Have you ever considered the possibility that it has an 'h' in it because you say 'herbs'. I would also remind you that Language (not the capital) most likely originated and evolved as a self-organising system and would have been around many millenia prior to writing systems.
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khmerhit



Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 1874
Location: Reverse Culture Shock Unit

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 2:01 am    Post subject: fine canadian wines and sport Reply with quote

we could place nouns such as paper, stone, and cake that can be either count or non-count nouns. For instance, I can enter a bakery and say "I want a cake" (an individual bakery product), or, before we enter, I can tell a friend that "I want cake" and not refer to a specific cake but simply mean that the idea of eating cake appeals to me � any cake or piece of cake with chocolate frosting will do, thank you.

It is this fourth column of nouns that confounds many writers. The distinction we make here between count and non-count is important for two reasons: it makes a difference whether we use an article with the noun or not and the meaning of the word can change depending on whether it is being used in its count or non-count form. Some examples:
Count Non-Count
She had many experiences. Does she have enough experience?
The lights were bright. Light hurts my eyes.
There's a hair in my soup! Hair is important on a cold day.
Give me three coffees. I'd love some coffee.
We study sugars in organic chemistry. Put sugar in my coffee.
The papers were stacked on the table. We wrote on paper.

When a non-count noun is used to classify something, it can be treated as a count noun. Thus, wine is usually a non-count noun ("I'd love wine with dinner"), and even if we have more than one glass of wine, we're still enjoying wine, not wines. But when we put wine into categories, the noun becomes countable: "There are many fine Canadian wines." Even water can become countable under the right circumstances: "the waters of the Pacific Ocean are noticeably colder this year." Sometimes a noun will be either countable or non-countable and mean practically the same thing:

* Chilean wine is superb.
* Chilean wines are superb.


http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:bM39wbDG3w8J:webster.commnet.edu/grammar/plurals.htm+plural+noun&hl=en&ie=UTF-8


Last edited by khmerhit on Tue Jul 08, 2003 2:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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Bertrand



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 293

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brooks wrote:
on the BBC when they talk about sports it is called `sport`. Why?
They talk about more than one sport.



This, I am afraid to say, evinces a level of knowledge (or rather, lack thereof) regarding the status of nominal phrases that would normally prevent someone from making a comment. This is embarrassing. ANY noun in English can be both countable and uncountable. Take 'table'; that surely is an countable noun, right? Wrong! It can be used in an uncountable manner as in (1) below:

1) You get a lot of table for 100 UK pounds at MFI these days.

Or take 'footballer' which can also be employed in an uncountable fashion:

2) You don't get much footballer for 1,000,000 UK pounds these days.

In many cases the standard 'setting' of a noun (whether it is a default countable or uncountable noun) is, as much of natural human language, purely arbitrary. It is very similar to subject/verb agreement (concord) Compare (3) and (4) below:

3) The police are....

4) The army is....

Although both the police and the army are large institutions full of many men and women, the former is singular and the latter plural. I think you would be hard pressed to find any semantic or pragmatic distinctions between the two.
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Brooks



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1369
Location: Sagamihara

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well in the US we say `sports`. But in the UK it is `sport`.
Just wondering. That`s all.
Just a different dialect. No reason to insult me.

Brooks
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Stephen



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bertrand wrote:

Stephen wrote:
Incidentally, we say herbs because it has an h in it.


Have you ever considered the possibility that it has an 'h' in it because you say 'herbs'. I would also remind you that Language (not the capital) most likely originated and evolved as a self-organising system and would have been around many millenia prior to writing systems.


Betrand

My point with this was we, British, say herbs but the Americans say erbs. I quite agree that it has an h in it because of how we say it, and that language evolved in spoken form a long time before it evolved in written form. My point was aimed at those who were complaining about the spelling of words like colour (which of course was taken from French; hence, we retained the spelling.) My point is that Americans need to look at their own spelling system and accept that it does not make sense, and being American does not give it any particular merit as opposed to any other form of native speaker spelling system. (Americans should also note that unlike dictionaries such as the Oxford English dictionary, Websters is contracting every year; does this mean that American vocabulary is also contracting?)

Stephen
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Guest






PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
on the BBC when they talk about sports it is called `sport`. Why?
They talk about more than one sport.


Would anyone like to apply a theory to the difference between UK maths and US math?
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PanamaTeacher



Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 278
Location: Panama

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephen wrote:

Quote:
Why in American English is volume considered an adequate alternative for either (a) a decent range of vocabulary, or (b) reasoned argument?


Bertrand answers:

Quote:
Because they have no imagination.


Bertrand--Do you think that is a fair assessment of your colleagues? If so, could you elaborate, since I lack the imagination to understand how anyone could say anything that stupid and be serious.
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khmerhit



Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 1874
Location: Reverse Culture Shock Unit

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bertrand has spent too many years riding the Northern Line and giving directions to American tourists in Piccadilly Circus. When not thus occupied, he was immersed in Jespersen, Quirk, Crystal, Chomsky, Zelig Harris and Said. These days, moreover, he is busy elbowing people out of the way as he struggles daily to get back to Chung King Mansions. No one wonder he's dyspeptic.
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dorum



Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 35
Location: China

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PT, you've made a fatal mistake - you asked Bertrand to elaborate Shocked - his 'non-elaborated posts are usualy so long I don't think anybody reads them all the way through!

This man can elaborate for Britain - well, maybe I can find another spelling mistake in his reply Wink
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PanamaTeacher



Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 278
Location: Panama

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's Encyclopedia Brittanica, huh? Oh well, it's been quiet around here. We'll see what he says. Like George Bush puts it: Bring it on!!!! Smile

He does like his typos, doesn't he. Smile

Tu Amigo en Panama
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some waygug-in



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 339

PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

British vs American spelling? Well, I think we Canadians have it about right. (notice my pronunciation of about, not aboot)
We spell some things like the Brits but pronounce like the Yanks and then get dumped on from both sides because we aren't quite like either.


I don't know how many times I've been razzed by my students for spelling colour or neighbour. Or even practice with a "c" instead of an "s".

Happy spellllin' thar maties.
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khmerhit



Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 1874
Location: Reverse Culture Shock Unit

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 1:32 am    Post subject: Ave you eard? Reply with quote

.
Quote:
Brooks wrote:
on the BBC when they talk about sports it is called `sport`. Why?
They talk about more than one sport.




This, I am afraid to say, evinces a level of knowledge (or rather, lack thereof) regarding the status of nominal phrases that would normally prevent someone from making a comment. This is embarrassing. ANY noun in English can be both countable and uncountable


In English we say 'herbs' and aspirate the 'h' because it has one.
In North America we say 'erbs' and dont aspirate because it has one but we dont wish to pronounce it.
In French they say les herbes' and dont aspirate because they are obtuse.

Similarly, in English we say 'wanker' and pronounce the 'w' because it has one, and 'freak' and pronounce the 'f' because it has one, and 'Hallelujah, he's gone!"-- pronouncing the 'h' because it has one and we choose to from convention, just as we say 'Ph.D', pronouncing the 'd' as in 'dickhead'. Finally, we usually say 'Bertrand' and pronounce the 'b' the same way as it is pronounced in the British slang word, 'Berk'-- forcefully and with feeling. Ave a nice day. Very Happy
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