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Miyazaki
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 635
Location: My Father's Yacht
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 Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:21 am Post subject: EFL in Public Schools |
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At what age level is it legal for public schools to teach English in Taiwan.
I have only heard that it is illegal but don't know at what age level or grade.
Thanks. |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:10 am Post subject: |
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So far, the Taiwan Ministry of Education has only banned non Chinese English teachers in classes with students under 6 years of age (early childhood or ECE). If you look Chinese, you will not be prohibited from teaching early childhood English classes on Taiwan. It is just another race based policy promulgated by the Ministry of Education on Taiwan.
Where the illegality comes in is the fact that non Chinese on Taiwan are not allowed free work rights on Taiwan, unlike Taiwanese in your nation of origin are given work and residency rights.
Non Chinese are subject to the racist laws of the occupational government on Taiwan stating that we can only work for a company, school or Chinese national that holds our work rights.
Public schools only hire through recruiters to facilitate the huge amount of kick backsw and bribes associated with any government contracts on Taiwan.
The Ministry of Education (MOE) sells the contract for EFL teachers in public schools to a recruiter (se IACC) in exchange for a huge kick backs to those same officials. The MOE can not/will not authorize you to work in public schools because that would mean that you are an equal human being with the local Chinese teachers and they lose huge amounts in bribes.
The authority to issue work permits comes under a different department that is not getting their bribe, thus non Chinese teachers work illegally for the Taiwan Ministry of Education in public schools as a result of wide spread corruption and racism that has come to epitomize the Taiwan Ministry of Education and Taiwan in general.
Welcome to Taiwan!
A.
Last edited by Aristotle on Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Miyazaki
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 635
Location: My Father's Yacht
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:17 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like the Amakudari in Japan.
Anyways, foreign English teachers cannot legally teach children under the age of 6 in regular public schools?
So foreign English teachers can legally teach English to children 7 years and older?
I thought the minister of Education stated a year or two ago that English language education can only legally begin at 11 years of age (Grade 5?).
Is it just me, or dos this whole subject seems really, really convoluted ? |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Miyazaki wrote: |
| At what age level is it legal for public schools to teach English in Taiwan. |
English has been made a compulsory subject from Grade 3 elementary school but many schools elect to start English language instruction from Grade 1. To my knowledge this is perfectly legal even though it goes against the wishes of the central government.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| If you look Chinese, you will not be prohibited from teaching early childhood English classes on Taiwan. It is just another race based policy promulgated by the Ministry of Education on Taiwan. |
That's ridiculous. What you are suggesting is that overseas born Chinese can teach these classes, but white or black teachers cannot. That is clearly incorrect.
Foreigners, no matter what their origin, nor the color of their skin, cannot obtain a work permit to teach in a kindergarten. It is wrong to suggest that this is a question of race. It isn't. It is based upon the fact that we foreigners simply don't qualify for this type of employment. Move on man!
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Non Chinese are subject to the racist laws of the occupational government on Taiwan stating that we can only work for a company, school or Chinese national that holds our work rights. |
You seem to suggest that this is unique to Taiwan, and in that you are wrong.
It is not unusual for your visa sponsor to be able to revoke their sponsorship of your visa. This is the situation in most countries that I am familiar with.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Public schools only hire through recruiters to facilitate the huge amount of kick back and bribes associated with any government contracts on Taiwan. |
That doesn't even make sense.
If schools were corrupt and wanting to capitalize in some way then they certainly wouldn't be paying recruiters. They would seek subsidies from the government to cover the costs of recruitment, pocket these monies, and employ directly.
You are correct that many positions in government schools are offered through recruiters, but obviously this is not for the reasons that you suggest.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| The MOE can not/will not authorize you to work in public schools because that would mean that you are an equal human being with the local Chinese teachers and they lose huge amounts in bribes. |
More unsupported nonsense.
The simple reason that foreign teachers are not generally employed by government schools is that the government would need to prove that locals could not do the job. No government in the world would be popular if it gave away the jobs of locals to foreigners. The government is no different in this regard. Quite honestly, I don't think that it has been proven that foreign teachers in government schools could do a better job than locals. If you can prove that Aristotle then you may see some change, but other than that you may as well stop moaning about it.
You are wrong when you suggest that can not and will not authorize foreign teachers in government schools. The fact is that they can and they do, but only in certain needy cases. There is a current group of such foreign teachers working legally at some government school as we speak.
| Miyazaki wrote: |
| Anyways, foreign English teachers cannot legally teach children under the age of 6 in regular public schools? |
Are there children aged under 6 even in public schools?
| Miyazaki wrote: |
| So foreign English teachers can legally teach English to children 7 years and older? |
Pretty much, yes.
| Miyazaki wrote: |
| I thought the minister of Education stated a year or two ago that English language education can only legally begin at 11 years of age (Grade 5?). |
It is not a case of legal or illegal. I think that you need to move away from that if you want to get an understanding of the situation.
It is a case of when does English become a compulsory subject of study, and the answer is grade 3. It used to be grade 5 but was brought down a couple of years ago.
The situation is really very easy:
1. Children can legally study English from any age in Taiwan.
2. Kindergartens are allowed to teach English as a subject, but are not permitted to offer English immersion programs that teach every subject through the medium of English. All subjects, except for the subject of English, must be taught in Chinese at kindergartens.
3. Foreigners cannot obtain a work permit to work in kindergartens as this category of work is one of many that is deemed not available to foreigners.
4. With the exception of certain needy schools who have joined a government program, government schools are not permitted to employ foreign teachers and as such cannot issue work permits for foreign teachers.
5. Private schools, international schools, and some experimental schools can offer legal employment for foreign teachers. |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Is it just me, or dos this whole subject seems really, really convoluted ? |
The ambiguity is intentional as it gives the corrupt Taiwan Ministry of Education officials the ability to enforce the rules and regulations in a way that increases their ability to accept bribes while having deniability.
No clear laws, means they are the law. The corrupt government of Taiwan can enforce it any way they are paid to.
Welcome to Taiwan!
A. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| Aristotle wrote: |
The ambiguity is intentional as it gives the corrupt Taiwan Ministry of Education officials the ability to enforce the rules and regulations in a way that increases their ability to accept bribes while have tenability.
No clear laws, means they are the law. The corrupt government of Taiwan can enforce it any way they are paid to. |
The laws are very clear Aristotle. Any confusion that arises comes from irresponsible posts such as your own which are based upon your own personal agenda and lack very little information.
If you really believe that things are not clear and that this is intentional on behalf of the government then why not clarify things for us all by pointing out the facts supported with evidence. Education is the only way to create change, and so far, despite your years of trying to rubbish Taiwan, you have never been successful. |
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wangtesol
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 280
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:11 pm Post subject: illegal system in Japan similar to Taiwan's |
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I worked in Japan and Taiwan illegally in public schools. That is, I had a legal work visa but the contract between the public school and the outsourcing companies that sent me were illegal (gyomu itaku).
In Japan, I did some research and joined a union and fought my company since there are the resources to do so in Japan. I ended up having the company investigated by the Labor Standards Office (rodo kijun kantokusho) where they were found guilty of having violated Labor Laws such as over-deducting from my salary when I took a day off, not paying me for a national holiday and not having "work rules" (shigyo kisoku). The union had good connections with the local media so we were able to publicize my case.
I wish I could have done the same in Taiwan. As far as I know, a migrant teacher cannot even go to a labor law office (gongzou falu shi?) to report offences. As far as I know, Labor Law in Taiwan does not even apply to the service sector which buxiban teachers fall under.
Of course, Taiwan's English teaching industry imitates the Japanese industry. Currently there are about 1500 teachers in Japan working on illegal service contracts between boards of education and outsourcing companies. This is causing problems in Japanese public schools where the English teachers are seen as amateurs by professional teachers. However, the purpose of deliberate mismanagement of Japanese public schools is to encourage the growth of private schools in Japan. And that is happening. Parents are fed up with poor conditions in the schools so they send them off to private schools. It's just how corporate capitalism goes. |
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Taylor
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 384
Location: Texas/Taiwan
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:07 am Post subject: |
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My only question is: Why would anyone want to teach 30+ mixed-ability children in a hot classroom at a public school for the same (or less) pay?
Find a decent language school that has about 12 to 15 kids in each class...with an organized curriculum and air conditioners!!!
Any comments?
Taylor
Kaohsiung |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:41 am Post subject: |
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I think you summed up the the situation fairly well. Taiwan's public education system is pathetic, that's why the bushi ban industry exist.
Hopefully with the decreasing number of students, the education industry on Taiwan will lose much of it's ability to influence national policy and the situation will improve for students and teachers alike.
How much damage will be done to Taiwan and how many people are willing to put up with the current environment until that happens?
Good luck!
A. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:46 am Post subject: Re: illegal system in Japan similar to Taiwan's |
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| wangtesol wrote: |
| I wish I could have done the same in Taiwan. As far as I know, a migrant teacher cannot even go to a labor law office (gongzou falu shi?) to report offences. As far as I know, Labor Law in Taiwan does not even apply to the service sector which buxiban teachers fall under. |
You could have, except for the fact that you were working illegally. There are very few rights for illegal foreign workers in most countries and Taiwan certainly fits the bill here.
Now I know that you may argue that you didn't know that the work was illegal. I hear you, but this is really not a good reason for working illegally in this day and age. The fact that it is illegal for foreigners to work in kindergartens and public schools (with some exceptions) is well publicised here in Taiwan. Anyone working in such a situation does so by choice or because they failed to research the situation.
Personally, the only illegal workers that I have sympathy for are the ones who end up working for buxiban that promised a work permit only to have the teacher work illegally as one never eventuates. Fortunately the authorities have the same sympathies, and teachers who can show that they were promised legal work that never transpired do not get punished.
The labor law does in fact protect foreign workers, but you need to be working within the laws of this country before the laws of this country can be used for protection. |
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wangtesol
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 280
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:13 pm Post subject: more |
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Actually, even though my company had signed an illegal contract with my school, I was still protected under labor law in Japan. The point was my position violated Dispatch Law and Education Law, not any immigration laws since I had a work visa; and similarly in Taiwan, I was not violating any immigration laws but perhaps the very nature of my position violated Education Law and any number of others.
I get it though; you are not in favor of people working without proper work visas in Taiwan, in general.
So, if you don't mind, what is the name of the labor standards office in Taiwan in Mandarin? Do you know of any cases of a migrant teacher in Taiwan having their employer investigated for labor law violations? |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 7:17 am Post subject: Re: more |
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| wangtesol wrote: |
| Actually, even though my company had signed an illegal contract with my school, I was still protected under labor law in Japan. The point was my position violated Dispatch Law and Education Law, not any immigration laws since I had a work visa; and similarly in Taiwan, I was not violating any immigration laws but perhaps the very nature of my position violated Education Law and any number of others. |
I disagree. In working illegally in Taiwan you are not violating Education Law, you are violating Immigration Law and Employment Laws.
| wangtesol wrote: |
| I get it though; you are not in favor of people working without proper work visas in Taiwan, in general. |
Actually I don't really care what people choose to do. That is their business. I only have a problem when people who choose to work illegally come to boards such as this and attempt to either complain about their employer or complain about Taiwan. They seem happy enough to work illegally but try to turn the situation around once things don't go in their favor. We need to lie in the bed that we ourselves make.
My only sympathies are with those teachers who do everything right in attempting to secure legal work but are lied to by their employers.
If you choose to work illegally then there is a chance that you will get burned. If you work legally then at least if you do get burned you will have recourse over your employer.
| wangtesol wrote: |
| So, if you don't mind, what is the name of the labor standards office in Taiwan in Mandarin? |
Council of Labor Affairs. You can find all the contact details for this organization within this article.
| wangtesol wrote: |
| Do you know of any cases of a migrant teacher in Taiwan having their employer investigated for labor law violations? |
Yes. I know of quite a few. I am one of them and that is how I know that the system can work. It also helps me to see how people who complain about their being no rights for foreigners don't really know anything about their rights because they have never looked.
The most famous case is no doubt the foreign teacher who took one of Taiwan's biggest chain schools to task regarding illegal deposits - and won! |
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wangtesol
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 280
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:58 pm Post subject: a sticky for Bureau of Employment |
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Okay, thanks for the info on the Bureau of Employment. There certainly wasn't such a website in English when I was working in Taiwan in 98/99.
I just checked Griffith's book Teaching English Abroad and the US State Department website for English teaching jobs and there is no information on llabor rights. So, I would find it rather understandable if a migrant teacher did not know of her rights as a worker.
I did see that the Canadian and American "consulates" in Taiwan did provide either a phone number or link to the Bureau of Employment. However, this took a while to find and I knew what I was looking for thanks to Griswald.
So, I think visiitors to Dave"s ESL cafe could stand to benefit from a "Sticky" regarding information on how to deal with a labor dispute in Taiwan with contact info for the Bureau of Employment.
I could have benefitted from this information years ago. |
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