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QuickSilver · Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 15

Answer mine first.

johnslat · Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 4:50 am Post subject:

Dear Quicksilver,
" Not once have I given my opinion about security in Saudi Arabia. Not once. "
A " direct opinion " is not the only way to convey a message, you know.
A writer can make statements with implications that invite certain inferences on the part of the readers:
1. " No one has responded to fact that the British citizen's car was riddled with bullets in Riyadh recently...why? "
This question of yours, for example, invites two inferences:
a) that being a Westerner in the Kingdom now means your life is in danger.
b) that there is a " conspiracy of slience " on the part of some posters on this board ( for what reason, I cannot even imagine - do we want to " lure unsuspecting victims " here? ) to paint a " false picture " of what life in Saudi Arabia is like right now. I'd be most interested in hearing what you believe our " motives " are for imparting what you believe to be " bad info ".
" What's the point of comparing the level of safety in the US vs Saudi Arabia? "
The point is simply that I, and others, think we are at least as safe, and probably safer, in the Kingdom now than in lots of other places. This whole thread, after all, concerns " safety " so it seems very relevant to me to compare how safe, in one's opinion, different places are.
Now, hope that satisfies you enough to let us know where YOU are - after all, such information is VERY relevant to determining the accuracy of your viewpoints. Are you, in hear-say fashion, relying only on " warden's messages " or do you have first-hand experience of the actual conditions " on the ground "?
Regards,
John

QuickSilver · Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 15

Fair enough, John. Thanks for responding.

I worked in Saudi Arabia for four years. I completed my latest contract in March 2002 and returned home to the states, where I reside now.

I have to say you're reaching with those inferences, while again I'm trying to stick with the facts.

Think about how this started -- BoundforSaudi made a statement...scot47 replied that he thought BoundforSaudi got it wrong. Knowing the content of the warden messages for this year, I provided the website for those messages for ANYONE interested in knowing the facts regarding official US gov't advisories.

Now, review the messages in this string in response. I've been verbally attacked -- I even received personal attacks in private responses at this site. And for what? For stating facts? For providing information? I've been accused of everything from having trouble reading to needing valium or a psychiatrist. Some of the accusations were simply sick.

Speaking of inferences, there's a significant one that can be made from the nature of those responses.

Now review the inferences you made about my question...reaching?

Here's one more statement from which anyone may draw all the inferences he wishs: About a month after 9/11 a buddy and I received a death threat from a Saudi businessman in town. I won't elaborate. Make what you want of it, but that incident is a fact.

QuickSilver · Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 15

Here's an excerpt from an AP article regarding a tragic event that occurred yesterday:

"Robert Dent, a 37-year-old British employee of the aerospace company BAE Systems, was fatally shot Thursday at a traffic light in Riyadh. Saudi authorities arrested said Saud bin Ali bin Nasser, a 30-year-old naturalized Saudi reportedly born in Yemen."

You can find the article at this URL:

http://famulus.msnbc.com/FamulusIntl/ap02-21-112853.asp?reg=MIDEAST

People should make informed decisions about Saudi Arabia.

QuickSilver · Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 15

Here's another report on the same event:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saudi/story/0,11599,899999,00.html

And a couple of other tidbits:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saudi/story/0,11599,896776,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saudi/story/0,11599,898435,00.html

This is, after all, all about "safety."

I don't push panic buttons. I don't engage in scare tactics.

And I don't make this stuff up.

johnslat · Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:14 am Post subject: Consider this

Dear Quicksilver.
One doesn't " reach " for inferences - they either jump out at one or they don't. Those two " jumped out " at me. I certainly agree that people should make informed decisions about going to or staying in Saudi Arabia, or, for that matter, about any place they live and work. But I also have to agree with scot on the issue of the first message because, to my mind, there IS a difference between " advising people to leave " ( which, so far, has not been done by the embassy ) and " advising people to consider leaving " ( which is what the embassy is doing now ). Having considered, I've decided to stay. Others may decide not to come or to leave. That's up to them. But whatever the decision, I hope it's the right one - inshallah.
Regards,
John

johnslat · Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:28 am Post subject: Question

Dear Quickslver,
I agree - you're not " making this stuff up ". However, I do have a question. You seem most highly motivated to " warn " people about the safety issues in the Kingdom. Are you simply a very public-spirited individual who has focused on Saudi Arabia, or are there any other reasons for your zeal? Just curious.
Regards,
John

Mark100 · Joined: 05 Feb 2003 Posts: 441

Dear All
Let's face facts.Things are getting decidedly unsafe here in Saudi.This situation will only getting worse if the US goes ahead with its ill advised attack on Iraq.Anybody who is not overly concerned definitely has his head buried in the sand.
The fact is with the advent of a war western expats will face 3 possible threats.
The danger of Iraq unleashing chemical weapons on Saudi and resultant consequences.
The threat of internal terrorist action via Al Queda as a result of the war and the instability that would cause.
The danger of random violence as occurred on Thursday with a BAE employee as a result of anti western sentiment .This could really escalate when many innocent Arab Iraqis are killed in a war.
I think that there is ample reasons to be concerned and i will personally be reassessing my situation should hostilities break out.
This possible war should not be compared with the Gulf War as the dynamics are completely different this time.

johnslat · Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2003 6:55 am Post subject: The ostrich speaks

Dear Mark,
" Anybody who is not overly concerned definitely has his head buried in the sand. "
Actually, I'd say that anyone who's " overly concerned " might be too concerned. But the " level of concern " is a matter for each individual to decide for him/herself. Although I get the distinct impression I'm being compared to an ostrich, I don't feel any need to deride those who decide either to leave or not to come here. That's their choice, based on how they feel/think and actually, is none of my business. And I certainly am aware that " This possible war should not be compared with the Gulf War as the dynamics are completely different this time.", since I was here in Riyadh on that occasion as well. If the invasion comes and you decide to leave, I wish you all the best.
Regards,
John

QuickSilver · Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 15

Hi, John.

"Are you simply a very public-spirited individual who has focused on Saudi Arabia, or are there any other reasons for your zeal?"

You decide. I'm convinced it wouldn't matter how I responded. After all, you've already concluded that I'm zealous.

"Although I get the distinct impression I'm being compared to an ostrich, I don't feel any need to deride those who decide either to leave or not to come here."

Do you think that was what Mark was inferring about you? I don't think so.

So you don't like being derided. I don't blame you. I don't like being derided either.

"But I also have to agree with scot on the issue of the first message because, to my mind, there IS a difference between " advising people to leave " ( which, so far, has not been done by the embassy ) and " advising people to consider leaving " ( which is what the embassy is doing now )."

Parse, parse, parse, the boys are march-ing!

It's POSSIBLE that the terrorist act on Thursday was not random. Here's why:

"A Saudi man detained on charges of killing a British defence contractor this week could possibly be linked to the al Qaeda network of Osama bin Laden, Saudi security sources said on Saturday."

The full text of the article:

http://famulus.msnbc.com/FamulusIntl/reuters02-22-040417.asp?reg=MIDEAST

I'm well aware of the modals of possibility present in the article.

Regards,

QuickSilver

QuickSilver · Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 15

Hi, John.

Well, I guess it's my serve...

"I must say, however, that I find:
' Parse, parse, parse, the boys are march-ing!'
to be a very insufficient argument against my opinion that there IS a difference between considering to do something and doing it."

Sorry, but I just couldn't resist that! At any rate, we'll just have to agree to disagree about this.

"As for the gunman's possible Al Qaeda ties, well, does it really matter whether the guy who shoots you is simply a common, garden-variety whacko or one who is linked to Osama?"

I couldn't agree with you more!!! It certainly makes no difference to his family.

However, if it's proven the terrorist acted alone and randomly, I wonder how many will forget your point here and argue in favor of safety there..."after all, it was just random violence," or something to that effect.

In my opinion (and everyone who reads this, please remember that opening phrase), it's just going to get worse there. Wait until the US finally admits we have to hold the Saudis accountable if they're guilty of complicity in the very existence and survival of Al-Queda. There are reports that seem to indicate just that.

I have friends in the kingdom now, and I pray for their safety every day. My prayer is for the safety of every westerner there. I believe that we are targets.

Regards,

QuickSilver

johnslat · Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:56 pm Post subject: Future Imperfect

Dear Quicksilver,
I'm having trouble posting here for some reason, so I'l just send this brief reply off as a test. I certainly appreciate your prayers but, at the same time, am hoping that Divine intercession won't be required. If your friends are as determined to stay as I am, I also hope no harm comes to them - or to any of us here. We disagree on how high the level of risk is and on whether it's better to stay or go. But I'm sure we don't disagree on hoping that your predictions turn out to be less accurate than mine.
Regards,
John

QuickSilver · Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 15

Amen, John.

All the best,

QuickSilver

Albulbul · Joined: 08 Feb 2003 Posts: 364

I am puzzled as to why Quicksilver is so keen for all of us to follow his example and run away. He may have had terrible experiences in KSA. Some teachers here have reasonable employers and decent working environments. My suspicion is that this man with a grievance cannot see that for some people KSA is a positive experience.

The moral again is : BEFORE COMING TO SAUDI CHECK OUT YOUR EMPLOYER.

As for security, I still feel safer here than I do in an urban area of the UK.

QuickSilver · Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 15

Dear Albulbul,

Personal attacks, name-calling. You're revealing so much about yourself.

Meanwhile, I'll keep posting facts for others to consider for themselves.

Cool