Job Discussion Forums

[Kara Murray]

How likely is it to find a decent position in Spain w/o an EU passport? I'm not looking to work illegally but I'm wondering what the odds are any school would sponsor someone for a work visa from the US w/ so many teachers available from the UK???

Thanks!

[Meg4]

Honestly, it's really unlikely that you'll find a school to sponsor you. If a school wanted to sponsor you the whole process (getting approval from the ministerio del trabajo, getting the visa, getting the residency card) would take at least six months--although probably closer to a year knowing how slow things work in Spain. Schools have no reason to wait for a year for someone to start working when there are tons of legal and illegal teachers here that they can hire. You'd have to have something really special to make a school want to try to sponsor you.

Even if you find a school that's willing to go through the process with you, this doesn't mean that you'll actually be granted a work permit. In order for them to hire you they have to submit the paperwork to the ministerio del trabajo and get their approval. The ministerio can only approve your work permit if it can be proven that there are no Spaniards / EU citizens who are available to do the job you've been offered. In the case of English teaching it's nearly impossible to prove this since there are lots of legal teachers here. So, the ministerio will most likely turn down the application even if the school wants to hire you.

However, if you don't mind working illegally most schools (at least in Madrid) don't seem to have any problems hiring illegal workers.

[Moore]

An American mate of mine has been offered sponsorship by all three of the schools he works for: according to him, the only drawback is that involves going back to the States for about three months while it is being processed. Of course, in order for ther schools to want him he�s had to work illegally here to start with, something he hates and is rather dodgy as any minute he risks being caught and the life he�s built here basically ending; also he�s worried about getting sick/having an accident.
Why work here illegally as an American when you can go to Asia and earn loads more and compete on a level playing field with EU workers? If you need the Spanish aspect, then what about going to South America?

[rosie1973]

The eternal question......

It's VERY HARD to get sponsored and very tedious when you do, like the above mentioned. I think you should just get a job as an illegal....see if you like the company you're working for....if you do and you think you will want to stay for a while, see if someone will sponsor you. In order to go through with the paperwork they have to trust you, like you, and know that you'll be around for quite some time to make it worth their while. Otherwise, don't sweat it --- don't get into a criminal lifestyle, get private health insurance, put some money into an IRA back home for retirement, and have a great time in Spain.

I've never heard of anyone getting caught and being forced back to the States.

[Moore]

Quote "It's VERY HARD to get sponsored and very tedious when you do, like the above mentioned. I think you should just get a job as an illegal"..."I've never heard of anyone getting caught and being forced back to the States"

...will you PLEASE stop encouraging people to come and work in Spain illegally - illegal workers undermine the rights and pay of legitimate EU nationals and benefit from all the facilities here without contributing one cent in taxes - WORKING IN SPAIN WITHOUT A VISA IS AGAINST THE LAW - which part of the word "illegal" do you not understand?

[grahamb]

Moore, that should be one "centimo." Pedantry aside, I agree with you one hundred per centimo.

[Kara Murray]

Thanks so much for the advice, much appreciated!

[Victoria Morley]

My thoughts on this whole EU vs non EU issue, and again this is just me! This is not a do this or don't do that post, it's just a post from an English teacher in Madrid stating facts as she sees them.

I'm British, I work in Madrid, loving every minute of it AND I happen to share a flat with 2 Americans who are teaching for companies that on paper say they only hire EU's. While I understand your point on non EU's Moore, how I see it is the demand for qualified, native English teachers is there so there will always be a demand for the non EUs mainly Americans.

Some companies even state that they only want American teachers and they are top Spanish companies! Other nationalities only when they're stuck. So again the Spanish companies are the ones not following the law. In Spain, yes there are laws, but following them is simply not their cup of tea!

There are 2 Spains inside Spain and you have to see it to believe it. It's true, Spain has tough laws BUT they never get enforced.

You're not supposed to drink and drive. Half the drivers on the Castellana after 12 o'clock on a Friday night are drunk - Police action, roadblocks, breath checks - no way it's too much hassle. I've been in bars when policemen on duty come in and have 2 or 3 brandies. Soldiers (in full military attire!) stand on guard duty smoking cigarettes. They are very relaxed about the whole thing.

The hourly rates are the same, EU's are paid the same as non EU's. Taxes are all paid directly to the Hacienda (Inland Revenue) , so net hourly rates are the same. Yes, we have the UK and Ireland but then many companies ask specifically for American teachers, and you know what I was told? It's because they deal mainly with US companies and they want their top executives to learn English as taught by an American teacher.

Many academies specificially put in their ads native English teachers, meaning passport holders primarily from the UK, the US. My opinion is that there are not enough EU (UK, Ireland) qualified teachers that the market will always hire non EU's and mainly Americans and at the same pay rate as EU's. I work for the bigger academies in Madrid, and as I said on paper they say they don't hire Americans, so why are we (my roommate and I ) working for the same bank on Castellana?

If there were enough Brits around to fill those "Native Speaker" ads, Spain wouldn't need the non EU's. There aren't. It's like I said, in Spain there's what the law says (tough laws) and what the real situation is (no action). I've seen it and I'm sure the academies know it too or they wouldn't bother hiring the non EU's.

About working in South America, I did consider that - the gypsy in me? one more city to explore but then that would mean I will be working illegally, as EU's and non EU's are technically not allowed to work in South America. They were colonies of Spain, so I guess they will have 2 sets of rules as well.

hasta luego, can I still pop in at Moore's?


regards,

victoria

[foss]

Nice to see that you're enjoying life here, me too. But:

"tough laws"?

You should see the hurdles you have to jump if you want to teach children in UK - advanced criminal records checks, all academic qualifications properly verified. And quite right too.

What is tough about demanding that employees are at least legally entitled to work in Spain?

[Victoria Morley]

I think my use of the word TOUGH must be slightly clarified here.

When I used the word tough, that meant that the Spanish laws and the corresponding penalties as laid down by the governement are on paper tough. The enforcement of these tough penalties is a separate issue on its own!

The procedure of companies asking workers for papers showing that they are legally entitled to work is not called tough, it is called common business practice. I believe this is a standard HR procedure done in most companies in the US, the UK, Spain and the rest of the EU.

The point I was making was that Spain has laws and should these laws be broken you will in principle incur tough fines, penalties, etc. Companies are aware of this but they don't seem to care and the relaxed attitude towards EU's and non EU's doesn't seem to change, at least in the English teaching sector.

As I have stated previously, my posts on this whole EU matter are not the do this / don't do that posts, they are simply statements of facts. At the end of the day, Spain has always been relaxed about the law per se, just look at the speeding on the motorways and the number of accidents over the weekends.

Victoria

[Russell Hadd]

[Victoria Morley]

Sorry my statements of facts are pretty recent, May, June 2004. Ok, let's replace never with rarely, and use no longer as earlier suggested, at the end of the day, I'm Brit , I can work quite legally in Spain, but it has to be said as well what the reality is.

There are as many EU's as non EU's teaching and don't ask me why, because its not a matter of lower wages, they get the same rates, I know, I room with Americans, we hang around with other non EU's , Canadians, Aussies, and as to be expected we do talk shop. Wage comparisons maybe? Even working for the same schools?

It's got to do maybe with the fact that there are many teaching jobs out there and not enough of us EU's to fill the need. End of story.

Victoria

[Russell Hadd]

[Moore]

There has been a certain amount of movement on the enforcement thing: the penalty for each illegal worker has gone up from 6000 euros to 30,000 which is pretty serious money for a language school. Employers of illegals can now be nailed for tax evasion too which can bump the fine up much higher. Part of the past years amnesties where they legalised as many worker as possible was a condition that there�d be a crackdown on those who were illegal from then on. While it�s pretty hard for the authorites to find illegal business teachers as they�re so widely dispersed, I�ve heard of several cases of disgruntled legal teachers denouncing their schools for employing illegal non-EU workers.

[Helen Frubeck]

Ok, ok, I think this issue has been discussed enough, both from the EU and the non EU camps, the pros, the cons, risks, penalties, what have you. The not paying tax point is something a lot of us non EU teachers understand. I'm American and I grew up aware of economic migration from Cuba, Mexico, a lot of them ending up undocumented workers. So the point about taxes is well understood.

Like many young teachers say between 22-25, I would like to see Europe. Many of us come to Spain, still paying our student loans back home, but many of us take this big step because we would want to experience life, other cultures outside of the big U Sof A. A lot of us do not come from rich families where Mom or Dad just writes a check for the European adventure, so we have to work and the easiest way to earn money is to teach English.

I trained before I taught. I saved for my TEFL program, I came out ready to teach because I made it my responsibility to train so I can teach effectively. I am not one of those EU and non EU teachers who teach and their only credential is their passport from a country where English is the mother tongue.

I have seen a lot of the main European cities like Rome, London, Paris, Amsterdam in the time I have been teaching in Madrid. I go on "puentes" -long weekends, mainly. I know I am here for a year, 1 year and a half at the most.

I am not saying that I am excused from the tax bit and all the arguments pointed out against non EU teachers, neither am I saying that my lack of private funds excuses me from what theoretically I shouldn't be doing. I want to see Europe before I hit 65, I want to see the world even if its on a tight budget and I will teach to pay for my dreams. This isn't a sob post, it's simply saying that many non EU teachers work in Spain or in other EU countries because we want to see Europe. We do not undercut EU wages because as I can see from the posts, the pay scales are the same. If companies can hire us to work legally, I'm sure you won't get many refusals from non EU teachers. Of course we would want to teach legally, regardless of how long we plan on staying in the EU.

I do not earn big bucks but definitely enough to see the Europe I'd like to visit. I'm already making plans to go to grad school, maybe go into some specialized field with Spanish studies, not sure yet, but my European experiences will be a big help when I move on.


Helen