Job Discussion Forums

[Chris_Crossley]

[benno]

i have worked in china for over 3 years...worked in 3 different cities...for many schools and universities (both full time and partitme)
never had any problems...no problems with pay...accomodation....visas...students or administration
makes me wonder about all these people who get them selves into difficulties
and i also make over 10000 yuan, so my salary aint too bad either

anyway maybe im lucky....i am a leo (and snake!) after all

[Roger]

[latefordinner]

I'm a little inclined, Benno, to think that you're very lucky. But then, Bonaparte once said that he preferred his generals to be lucky than good. (Can anyone help me find some context for that? I can't even find the quote right now, and it's a very minor but very active bug up my a$$ at the moment) Perhaps the same should be said of FTs? Is it better to be a lucky job finder than a good teacher?
Certainly Sigmoid's question is valid, however:

[noi]

Thank you all for your comments.

For virago
We are well aware of how Chinese teachers are treated and, in our eyes, it is disgusting. Foreigners can do very little against this, but we can certainly ensure our rights (and the subsequent FTs after us) are respected.
Our conviction is that schools treat foreigners so badly partly because of the bunch of pushovers and yes-men that previously accepted their discourteous behaviour.
For certain, life in China would be far different if each and every foreigner were steadfast and rigorous in demanding reasonable treatment.


For sigmoid
We sincerely hope so. We took our time to write a detailed account in order to give an accurate image of what happened.


For T.C.53
We know that many people think that such postings are “exaggerated, singular, personal”etc. but, we also know that such stories are common in China and that Chinese schools keep practicing their depleted procedures without being reprimanded.
Many people believe that posts such as ours are “exaggerated” or perhaps are simply borne of a personal grudge.
Unfortunately, stories such as ours are common currency in China and there are indeed sites where one can post experiences:

www.englishschoolwatch.org
http://www.buxiban.com/schoolBLKCN.asp
http://www.tesolmax.com/discussion/index.pl
http://chinaschoolreview.com/

The information available is rather sparse and decentralized, but it exists. A disparity which occurs is that good experiences are seldom shared.


For Zero Hero
This is the reason for posting this story. We do not wish such a story to be experienced by anyone, not even by our enemies. It is degrading and humiliating.
Indeed, China is home to many a bottom-feeder. It would be curious to know if employers knew this…


For Mideatoo
It is your right to express your position, but we really do not think that you are on solid soil here. Since you didn’t have the concentration to read the whole article, anything you formulate is erroneous.
Usually, when someone wants to make comments on a book, story, film, etc, that person makes sure that she or he covered the subject from all angles. And this is something that you failed to do.
We’ll reply to the only issue you mentioned: the gas burner
The point was not that we couldn’t buy one (read the text for details and you’ll find out that we did indeed buy many things to contribute to our quality of life in China).
The idea is that a schools who leaves a family without a basic cooking utensil has no respect.
We did not even have a kitchen in our living area: we had to clean our dishes in the bathroom sink.
We are not fast food-eaters or pub regulars, living with beer and cigarettes and be exultant in China!
We presume that you could tell us exactly how many beers one could drink for the price of a gas cooker…
You seem to make an enormous confusion between poverty and civilized behaviour… A poor person/nation seems to be entitled to be aggressive, rude, dishonest etc?
We know how proud those parents are, too proud to dispense even a nod in our direction when they see us. And please spare us the “too shy” slogan.
And we know about the salaries. These “poor parents” were among the wealthiest individuals in the city.
Furthermore, they have nothing to do with providing decent living conditions for foreign teachers.
Are we supposed to consent to such a situation because Chinese parents make sacrifices and because Chinese people are poor?
Our parents made sacrifices too. Parents sacrifice themselves all over the world.
To your merit, there is a valid point in your superficial reaction: China is not for people like us.
We didn’t go to China for the cheap beer and to play “hangman” for one hour or beg for teaching materials and an easy curriculum. We spent hours preparing things for the children, decorating the classrooms with material that we bought with our funds.
You are correct. China is certainly not for us.

P.S. By the way, we suggest you donate a part of your enormous salary to the local paupers and barmaids in your cause c�l�bre. We are convinced, however, that you have probably already donated biological samples to the latter.


For tw
Yes, you are correct. We’ll post our experiences everywhere we can.


For Roger
Thank you, Roger, for such a pertinent comment.
According to the Supreme Court of the PRC, we were indeed fined the maximum amount. It is possible, though, that the information reflected here is outdated (2002):

Article 44 of The Rules Governing the Implementation of the Law of the PRC on the Entry and Exit of Aliens
Article 44 Aliens who found employment without permission from the Ministry of Labor of the People's Republic of China or its authorized departments shall have their posts or employment terminated and may at the same time be fined up to 1,000 yuan (RMB), and those whose offenses are serious may at the same time be ordered to leave the country within a specified time.
Units and individuals who employ aliens without permission shall terminate employment of the said aliens and may at the same time be fined from 5,000 to 50,000 yuan (RMB), and be ordered to cover all the expenses of repatriating the aliens whom they had employed.
http://en.chinacourt.org/public/detail.php?id=308
Then again, you are probably well aware of how well legislature is respected in China.
You are accurate: the police seemed not to be willing to dig a Taiwanese ditch. Especially when this was about the time the “War Act” was passed against Taiwan.
About us being “banned” from China for five years: we could not care less.
A strange side note is that only one of us was “forced” to leave China, even though we were both in the same mess.


For Zero Hero
Your demeanor is highly appreciated, Zero Hero.
We hesitated to post this on the forum, aware of the low intellectual average.
There are people here who only enjoy offending others. There are also people who mock those who post such stories, adding salt to wound.
Forums need people like you and a few others who are sincerely constructive in their approaches.
Thank you.


For Babala
No, this was not our first experience in China. We had lived there for over two years previously.
Paradoxically, only our first year was enjoyable. It all went downhill afterward.


For sigmoid
Yes, true indeed.
Mideatoo’s comment would be pertinent if our topic would be “Mainlanders’ salaries”.


For benno
We arrived in Yiwu in late October after having changed schools twice between August-October. We were exhausted. We had a home in China; we were not tourist teachers traveling with our rucksacks. We needed two weeks to unpack our belongings.
As they promised that our documents would be done, we thought that things might improve. We even held some weekly training for the teachers in our spare time.
After our second Hong Kong trip, we were seriously thinking about leaving the place. The trouble with the police just cemented and accelerated our departure.
The whole episode lasted four months.
In retrospect, it is amazing that we were gullible and believed their lies for so long.

[Don McChesney]

Noi's story of dodgy dealings in Yiwu makes me so glad I have had what I think is fair treatment, I enjoy working here (Zhengzhou), and really have little to complain about except the FAO has some weird ideas. I have come back for a second go, so that says something.
Roger commented on the balanced views of Noi as a well presented tale of caution, and at first I had to agree, but then got to thinking about it.

Were these people innocents abroad?.

(1) I noted that they were there (Yiwi) for 4 months, and they went to Hong Kong two times ,firstly to get a one month visitor visa, then for a 3 month visa. Surely they knew about Z and work visa requirements.
(2). This is her 15th posting to Dave's, so they both must have read about visa requirements, surely warning bells were ringing.
(3) They had been in China for 2 years previously, the first year was good, then things went downhill. Naive newbies?
(4). They changed schools TWO times between August and October, before going to Yiwu. Was this purely the other school's fault each time?

While I cannot dispute these people had a terrible time in Yiwi, I do have to wonder about an unspoken 'other side' of their teaching story.
Either they are not 'street wise' after 2 years, or they had eyes shut, and are just not complaining types, and who should have stood up to the management and demanded fair treatment, including full refund for all monies paid by them.

[Babala]

Don, I think you made some very valid points. Yes, it is unfortunate when a FT has a bad experience with a school but let's remember that we ourselves have some responsibilities. I'm sorry but after 2 years in China you should know the visa laws. When the school asked you go to Hong Kong and get a tourist visa, you should have bailed then.

[Zero Hero]

[Babala]

ZH,
There may be some debate about being about to work on F visa but I don't think anyone has ever thought it was legal to work on a tourist visa.

[Mideatoo]

[noi]

For Don Machesney

Deeply appreciate such a seemingly keen analysis of our text, but the matters you broach have already been explained.
Furthermore, if you believe being in China for 2 years and seven months makes one a specialist in Chinese legal issues, questions must be raised about how much you understand of China.
Even Roger, undoubtedly an “old hand”, perhaps even considered by some an authority on all matters Chinese, has had his share of legal status concerns:

[Don McChesney]

Firstly, I suggested you were not 'street wise', rather than being specialists in Chinese law, and now advise you that your 'green book' to which you refer has been replaced by an FEC in your passport.
This is issued, in Henan, by The Foreign & Overseas Chinese Affairs Office, who give authority for a school or business to employ FT's.
In the event of unresolved disputes, the State Administration of Foreign Experts Affairs will arbitrate.
No, I'm not an expert on legal matters in China, but I do my homework.

[Volodiya]

Noi wrote: