Job Discussion Forums

myesl · Last edited by myesl on Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:41 am; edited 1 time in total

Being wiser this time around I am asking to talk with foreign teachers whenever a school offers me a job. There's no shortage of schools offering me jobs. The problem is a) I want a Z visa before I leave which scares off about half the schools who have already sent me a contract and said they want to hire me, and b) I want to talk to their foreign teachers. Thus far only one school, out of a couple dozen anyhow, let me do this. The other schools, well, recruiters, just don't answer my emails after I ask this apparently dreaded question.

Maybe the school is refusing to give the recruiter teacher emails for fear they will tell of their floggings and show their scars, or maybe -- I am favoring this one myself -- that the recruiters don't want to ask? One recruiter told me it was his first time to recruit for the schools he was advertising for, so he didn't know the FTs emails. Well, ask. No reply.

Of course, the recruiter only gets paid money if s/he gets some fresh meat for the school, so they ought to ask the school, right? But then again, who knows? After 7 months in China earlier this year I was amazed at how unwilling many business people were to walk across the street to make a million dollars.

In the case of the one school that has let me talk with their FT I was talking to the school, not a recruiter.

About what percentage of the schools you contact or that offer you a job balk at being asked to talk to their FTs?
[I edited this post to change the main question above after the first reply.]

mmm... pancakes · Joined: 07 Sep 2005 Posts: 92

I guess this was one good aspect of doing a TESOL course - they pointed out that you should always ask for e-mail addresses of other teachers, whether they be (recently) past or present.

When applying for jobs I included this at the top of a series of questions in my first response.

Generally most of the schools were happy to do so (or so they appeared). A few were very taken aback and gave the "I need to ask for their permissions first" line, which is a very effective staller. (As far as I'm concerned they should've considered this before posting the job ad, and asked the other FT's permissions then.) A very few hadn't had FTs before, so obviously couldn't.

But really, the ones who don't reply after you ask aren't the ones you want to work for anyway.

And another important aspect that comes up in your post: Why are you going through a recruiter? They're there to take your money, dude. Don't let them; talk directly with the school.

I guess from a recruiter's point of view, the easier they make their money the better. When you ask hard questions they start to have to do some work, which of course they want to avoid at all costs. Recruiters are scum / scammers, with very few exceptions. In my opinion.

myesl · Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:39 am Post subject:

What you say is true, but almost all the jobs advertised on the Net are through recruiters.

So you have found schools that let you talk to their teachers?

GeminiTiger · Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:51 am Post subject:

To be honest I understand the recruiters point of view on this. If they give you all the contact information you request they have more or less made their own position absolete.

Although I was able to ask many questions about conditions and working environment of my current school I did not have the contact information for the school until after I arrived!

This is a bit foolish but then again it was my first time. To be honest after the first three weeks here I am satisfied with the school and people here.

Though this is more stupid luck then sound advice.

myesl · Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 4:06 am Post subject:

Every single recruiter has told me the name and location of the school. I don't see that giving me the email of the FT makes the recruiter any more unnecessary in such a case. Do you?

Girl Scout · Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 525 Location: Inbetween worlds

You are absolutely right about requesting to talk to former or current teachers. I have also discovered you need to ask them the right questions. I usually try to find out the down side of working there and their reason for leaving.

I got really luckly this time. The school I work for now actually has one of those Yahoo user groups where you can post question and get advice.

Babala · Joined: 28 Jan 2005 Posts: 1303 Location: Henan

My school always gives e-mail addresses out when requested. In fact we encourage it. Someone who refuses to give you a current or former FT's e-mail address probably has something to hide.

bearcanada · Joined: 04 Sep 2005 Posts: 312 Location: Calgary, Canada

Greetings;

I'm honestly surprised about the doubts expressed in asking for references.

If dealing with a recruiter, this is the easiest way to weed out the con artists. Those who won't supply contacts have good reason. And legitimate recruiters will oblige. If you can't get at least 5 good references from conversations with past teachers, then bail out.

Can you imagine a headhunting firm refusing to provide the names and contacts of client references? It's absurd.

These recruiters place dozens of teachers so 5 or 10 names should be nothing to them. Insist on at least that many.

It's the same with schools. If they won't give you half a dozen contact names, cross them off your list.

But you have to be careful because some schools - the smaller private here-today-gone-tomorrow ones - (and recruiters too) will give you the names of friends, or even one of their own email addresses. Usually, but not always, the poor English is a giveaway.

Some sites like Huali (at newedu.net) have posted references which are laughable and clearly fake.

If this one stipulation were followed without fail, 80% of all teachers' problems would disappear and the scammers would be out of business. It's so simple, but too many people 'want to believe' and don't do this to protect themselves. If you don't seriously check references, you will be largely responsible for your own misfortune.

The same goes with the "Z" visa. There is no reason a licensed school can't arrange your visa before you leave. Why would you go without it? If they won't provide it beforehand, chances are very high they can't because they aren't licensed.

Once again, something so simple and absolutely reasonable as getting your work visa before you leave, will starve all the illegal schools and scam recruiters to death. You owe it to yourself and everyone else to do this.

Your airfare is the same. Many, if not most, legitimate schools will pay for your ticket or refund the money to you ON ARRIVAL, not "after the end of the contract year".

The airfare itself may not be a solid indicator, but if it is combined with a refusal of either the references or the visa, you almost certainly dealing with con artists.

It isn't difficult to protect yourself. Just DO these things.

I have more tips on how to avoid being cheated at my website, if you're interested. http://www.bearcanada.com Click on the 'China ESL' button.

Cheers,

struelle · Joined: 16 May 2003 Posts: 2372 Location: Shanghai

Asking to talk to FTs should be encouraged all right. But what happens if a prospective teacher signs on and still has problems, even after having such conversations?

When I finished teaching at the boarding school in Shanghai last June (2004), I got a phone call from a teacher later in the summer. We had an in-depth conversation about my experiences there, and I talked about the good, the bad, and the ugly. The teacher decided to sign on regardless, but he pulled a midnight run in December. When I heard about this I flipped! It was a total mystery ... his questions were sound, I gave honest info, and positive ways to deal with bureaucracy problems.

I later inquired, and his running had to everything to do with a misfit of school culture. For example, I completely forgot about the lack of visitors to my office when I taught there. My approach was to make my own contacts with students, local teachers, etc. I didn't take the lack of visitors personally as it was just school culture - the place was frantically busy, and people were too involved in other stuff. As I later learned, this is common all over Shanghai.

Unfortunately, this never came up in our conversation, because he asked questions about specific issues, not about school culture. So my focus was all on specific situations, and we could have avoided a lot of problems if school culture was discussed - but it wasn't.

So when you talk to other FTs, it's all about asking the right questions!

Steve

bearcanada · Joined: 04 Sep 2005 Posts: 312 Location: Calgary, Canada

Steve, you made a very intelligent point. I've been thinking solely in terms of helping teachers avoid being cheated outright by unscrupulous people. Thank you for reminding me that there can be many more normal problems to resolve.

I share your surprise and disappointment in the teacher who ran. That doesn't seem responsible.

Cheers,

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

Some forget how strange western ways are to Chinese minds.
The Internet has been around here only a few years, and applying for a job has been common for a fraction of the time that vacancies for FTs have been known to exist; imagine in the early 1990s and before you could only apply by snail post or in person, then wait, wait some more and possibly never hear from them.

I personally laud the idea of soliciting email addresses from currently employed FTs; it is an idea I have adopted from those who have always done it this way.
But Chiense find this weird; it may ruffle their feathers. Many oblige, of course, knowing it is in their own interest - but they had to learn that this is the way they should operate.

It certainly is necesssary to ask tactfully; Chinese employers are not even used to having to answer the question "how much are you willing to pay in salary?" Ask your Chinese temp colleagues, especially TAs, and many of them, freshly hired, have no clue what is their due, nor would they have the guts to ask!

Don McChesney · Joined: 25 Jun 2005 Posts: 656

A downside to contacting currently employed FT's at a school is that if the prospective employee decided NOT to sign a contract, the FAO may well blame the FT for giving negative information, particularly if there has been any friction in the past.

If you are that TF, you may well email the new person in good faith and then get blamed for their decision which may well be based on something else, ie another job offer.

brsmith15 · Joined: 12 May 2003 Posts: 1142 Location: New Hampshire USA

Use an old HR trick: When you get the address of an FT, ask THAT person for the email address of someone else.

Might not work but it's worth a try.

voodikon · Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 1363 Location: chengdu

i've never been denied such contacts; and actually, i find these contacts can make or break the deal.

i did, however, the first time i was looking for jobs, request a contact from an employer or recruiter (i don't remember which now) and was given what turned out to be a false e-mail address--which i then e-mailed and was replied to in horrible chinglish singing the highest praises of the school. how dumb do they think we are?