Job Discussion Forums

[Roger]

Bearcanada has in just 5 days succeeeded in losing any credibility even before he established any, owing to his abrasiveness and his attempts at self-promotion.
Thank you, we all can see what's in it for you in this game!

[bearcanada]

Someone was asking if it's possible to have air fare paid up front. Here is a quote below from another post on this message board. As I pointed out earlier, this is the way the expat system has always worked for every other occupation and I know of no reason it shouldn't apply to teachers.

Normally the hiring organisation purchases the ticket themselves; it would be very unusual for a company to ask the new employee to pay his own way. But in any case, if the money has already been spent it should be refunded immediately, not after a year. To my mind, that is plain unreasonable despite the thought that people seem to do it.

It's a good way to help weed out unscrupulous recruiters and financially weak schools.

_______________________________

I started at a new university recently. Another FT said they gave him full airfare reimbursement UPFRONT last semester and promised the same this year for him, so I also requested the same.

The school said OK and - no kidding - 2 weeks later called me into the FAO office and gave me an envelope with 18,180 rmb in it.

They paid for a ticket from Palm Beach International (Florida) to Hong Kong with a return for one year later AND the round trip from Shenzhen to Jinjiang.

I am laughing...All the way to The Bank Of China
.
_________________
Jeff

[clark.w.griswald]

[bearcanada]

Clark, just a couple of minor comments in response.

I wouldn't think that applying for a position as a "foreign expert" in another country would qualify as a "local position". I think that by definition, it would not.

My point about having travel expenses reimbursed on arrival is not a personal view. It is a statement of the fact that the expat system has always worked that way in every other occupation.

I appreciate your comments, but I still see no good reason that this should not apply to teachers as much as to accountants. It can't hurt to ask.

[Babala]

I think a school shouldn't pay the airfare upfront. Perfect example is the poster on here recently asking for info on how to do a runner. We have to protect ourselves but schools do also.

[clark.w.griswald]

It seems to me that the big difference is whether or not you choose to come here, or whether you are sent here. Obviously if you don't want to come but your company is sending you then they will automatically cover the costs. You may of course apply for a position with the specific aim of receiving a placement in China, but the concept is still the same as they have defined packages for staff who work overseas.

In the case of you actively seeking positions on offer in the local market, but also available to overseas applicants, the relocation packages may not be part of the deal. Basically, if you want the job then you come to China to get it. I believe that the work that most teachers do here largely fits into this category more than the former one.

Interestingly, most teaching positions still offer the benefit of return tickets as an incentive, but as outlined in the employment contract these benefits are not made available until you have satisfied certain parts of the contract.

[Babala]

bearcanada,
I checked out your website and looked through the section about contracts. I found some of your suggestions to be petty and frankly I see no point to them. You said to insist that the school pay you every 2 weeks while almost every school pays monthly. You said to refuse signing the clause about the FT having to follow Chinese laws and regulations when that is standard in any contract and the fact is that we do. I felt when I read it that you were going through just trying to find things to criticize so you would have something to write. You also seemed to confuse airfare with travel allowance. Travel allowance works like a bonus and it is separate from airfare. This is not to say that everything you said was incorrect. You did make some points but it takes away when you mix your good points in with a lot of nonsense. If I had a FT looking for a job and demanding some of the things you said, I would take a pass on them.

[Roger]

Clark and Babala,
thanks for your level-headed intervention! I second every comment made by both of you!

The oft-mentioned GUIDE TO EMPLOYMENT OF FOREIGN EXPERTS
says on page 621,

VII Compensation for Foreign Cultural and Educational Experts....

1. What is the arrangement for the international travel expenses for foreign experts and their families?

(1) For those foreign experts whose employment term exceeds one year (one academic year), the host institution shall provide round trip economy air tickets for them and their spouses and one child under the age of 12 who live together with them during the employment term.
(2) For those foreign experts whose employment term is of half a year (one semester), the host institutions shall provide the experts themselves with international single trip air tickets.
(3) For those experts who have special agreements with related Chinese departments or institutions, their travel expenses shall be arranged according to the agreement.

2. What if the air tickets to China were bought by foreign experts themselves?
In case foreign experts themselves hafe bought air tickets to CXhina due to special circumstances, the tickets expenses shall in principle be reimbursed with foreign currency, or RMB with the agreement of the foreign experts.

That's all I could find in this guide; to me these provisions lack legal firmness; I would qualify them as "latex clauses" - conveniently elastic, if the case warrants this and suitable to any contingency the Chinese employer may be faced with.

In other words: a FT enjoys no such a thing as a right to upfront refunding of his travel outlays. And in not a few cases this policy may be absolutely necesssary to safeguard the legitimate interests of our employers.
In several years of being employed here, I have alwyas received my dues except in two cases when I wasn't hired with the full sanctions of the relevant authorities. My advice to newbies is to come with enough money to take care of any emergency!

And one other piece of advide: try to get your reimbursement paid out in monthly instalments together with your salary. Some employers do comply with this request from FTs.

[bearcanada]

".... paid out in monthly installments" is what I recommended earlier on my website as an alternative if a lump-sum payment proved troublesome.

It occurs to me that this debate might in part be a simple matter of demographics.

I received an email recently from someone complaining about the people who post on this board. I didn't keep the message because it was offensive but one of the comments referred to "whining juvenile backpackers", or words to that effect.

That's not true, of course, but if you look past the intended insult there may be something there.

It may be that the preponderance of teachers coming to China (or at least those posting here) are young and single and looking for some interesting experiences (much as kids used to take off to Europe after graduation - literally backpacking).

Then they might look on the teaching as just a way to earn enough money to live while seeing the country. Nothing wrong with that, but if someone is coming from that direction it may change the perspective on expense recovery.

On the other hand, an older (perhaps married, perhaps with children) teacher may well have different priorities toward both remuneration and security. In this event, an up-front recovery of travel expenses could be seen in a different light.

The same reasoning might apply to other contract provisions. For eg., a teacher bringing his wife to China might be less inclined to come on a tourist visa and hope for the best. Or less likely to accept an apartment where the stairwells were, as one teacher put it, "dominated by some form of mutant rat".

[clark.w.griswald]

Bearcanada in your latest post on this subject you have become very specific as to who your advice may best apply. Don't you see the inconsistency in that. In your earlier postings you offered this information as general advice to all foreign teachers without any further stipulations. You pretty much suggested that this is the way it is done for everyone and that this is what newbies should expect.

Now you are conceeding that certain aspects of what you recommend applies to only a small fraction of the teacher population here.

I don't know the exact numbers, but at a rough guess I would say that around 60% of foreign teachers are single people under 40. Maybe 30% would be retirees. Only around 10% would be workers in the middle of their careers with families. I am not talking about international schools nor am I talking about other white collar workers or visiting professors. I am only talking about foreign ESL teachers who have decided to head to China to teach.

If the above is even remotely accurate then it means that your advice that you offered as general advice to all teachers only really applies to less than 10% of the teaching population in China. I think that you should really state this when you post this information as it would certainly help to clarify this to newbies who may not realize the truth.

[bearcanada]

Clark, what exactly is it with you? You seem unable to make a post without slurs, personal attacks, innuendo, patronising insults........

With NO facts, (which is what you regularly accuse me of having), you made unwarranted and blindly wrong assumptions about my knowledge base, experience, amount of research....

I feel like I've been caught up in a game of 'king of the hill' with some disturbed child. You seem determined to 'win' every post regardless....

And of course, you can only win every time by changing the rules, which is what you do with each post. If I make a general comment, well that's too general to be valid. So you're up on your horse displaying your moral and intellectual superiority by demonstrating conditions where the advice wouldn't apply. And if I post a specific comment, well that's too specific so you invoke the sweet voice of reason and pull the same stunt in reverse.

You accuse me of not researching facts and then you're off in outer space speculating about the average age of foreign teachers in China - about which you confess you have no information. That kind of thing is wrong only if someone else does it.

You have not in all your voluminous posts acknowledged even the smallest valid point without immediately resorting to cheap shots and personal attacks. You have consistently found ways to evade or twist the substance of my comments to 'prove' your righteous wisdom and my evil stupidity.

That used to be called intellectual dishonesty. I believe it still is.

Sincere people can have great differences of opinion and, usually, there is truth and value on all sides of a debate. Often, it is only through the interchange and debate of polar differences that a wider appreciation occurs for all concerned. That's not really news. Why is it so necessary for you to dismiss every opinion by attacking the person who holds it?

This board should be for everyone. It should be a place to exchange ideas, share experiences, debate opinions, obtain advice, learn new things.

I am no longer following this thread and I think it should be taken off-line. This juvenile bickering has degenerated the topic so badly it can't possibly be of use or interest to anyone. You win.

[clark.w.griswald]