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ImanH
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 214
Location: Istanbul
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 Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:29 am Post subject: |
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The good scholarship student has half her fees waived and half her fees deferred until she has graduated and is working. The exceptionally good scholarship student does get some living expenses too. I'd have to check with her how exactly it work. This might be tied to her part-time work at the university or she might be doing that additionally.
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| But entry to an MA programme at a state university is dependant on taking an exam. Your place is dependant on your exam score and not on where you did your BA. |
That�s not how I understand it. According to Bosphorous, for example, in addition to passing these written and oral exams the following are required
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4. An official transcript of undergraduate (and graduate, if any) courses and grades.
5. A minimum undergraduate GPA of 2.50/4.00 or 60/100.
6. Official LES or GRE scores:
- LES: a minimum combined score of 45.
- GRE: a minimum total score of 950 in the Quantitative and Verbal Tests, and a minimum score of 3.5 in the Analytical Writing Test.
7. Two reference letters, at least one academic.
8. Official proofs of English proficiency:
- TOEFL: a minimum score of 550 in the paper-based test and a minimum score of 213 in the computer-based test; a minimum score of 4.5 in the Test of Written English.
- IELTS (International English Language Testing System): a minimum combined score of 7.
- BUEPT (Bogazici University English Proficiency Test): a minimum score of �C�. |
These MA programmes are very competitive. Universities, particularly good ones, do not just take anyone. So they too need to be convinced of a student�s ability, and more importantly, the BA is a preparation for the MA � you might score brilliantly as an engineering student but I certainly wouldn�t accept you on an anthropology MA - consequently a department's view of the undergraduate degree is significant.
Molly, in response to your point, I agree to some extent, but I think these students are constrained or alternatively able to exercise choice in different ways. He is not so bright but wealthy so cannot attend Bosphorous university but can afford a less prestigious university. She on the other hand is poor and thus, while she scored high enough grades to enter Bosphorous uni, since she has no means to support herself, chose to go to a private where she could get living expenses.
Similarly, with regard to your more provocative question! Yes again, in theory but there are still constraints on and choices for anyone seeking employment. Tenure in the best universities is hung on to by any savvy academic, so positions do not frequently open up, for one. I am constrained, too, for example by my subject area and by being a foreigner (there are quotas in place for positions at state universities � quotas taken up predominantly by you lot, since priority is given to native English language teachers). And then of course, it depends on whether one's research interests fit in with the existing staffs', and so on and so on.
So yes, in a perfect world where market theory works and everything is fair the best academics should get the best job, students should attend where and what they want irrespective of their wealth and only on condition of their suitability, but social reality is far messier than that (which is quite fortunate really as it keeps me in a job trying to explain it all  ).
Last edited by ImanH on Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:40 am; edited 2 times in total |
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molly farquharson
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 839
Location: istanbul
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| My daughter is in university now on a scholarship. This is in the US. She is quite bright and ambitious (like her mother ). She is going to a prestigious univ and is now in law school with a lot of very rich students from Cornell, yale, harvard, etc. She didn't have the resources (nor do I) to go to any of the other universities she applied to, as they offered puny scholarships. Emory offered her $60,000 over 3 years! She did her BA at a state univ. My point is that even (maalesef) in the US, the land of plenty, it is not a given that any student, bright or not, can go to university. Student aid is not sufficient and many parents cannot afford to foot the complete bill. At the same time, some places (like Harvard) give preference (or so I understand) to offspring of their graduates-- hence George Bush got in and was such a stellar student (straight Cs, I heard). So, it is not only Turkey where slots at univ are unevenly filled. |
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31
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 1797
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:18 am Post subject: |
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The good scholarship student has half her fees waived and half her fees deferred until she has graduated and is working. The exceptionally good scholarship student does get some living expense
But still a state uni costs nothing.
| Quote: |
| But entry to an MA programme at a state university is dependant on taking an exam. Your place is dependant on your exam score and not on where you did your BA. |
That�s not how I understand it. According to Bosphorous, for example, in addition to passing these written and oral exams the following are required
| Quote: |
4. An official transcript of undergraduate (and graduate, if any) courses and grades.
5. A minimum undergraduate GPA of 2.50/4.00 or 60/100.
6. Official LES or GRE scores:
- LES: a minimum combined score of 45.
- GRE: a minimum total score of 950 in the Quantitative and Verbal Tests, and a minimum score of 3.5 in the Analytical Writing Test.
7. Two reference letters, at least one academic.
8. Official proofs of English proficiency:
- TOEFL: a minimum score of 550 in the paper-based test and a minimum score of 213 in the computer-based test; a minimum score of 4.5 in the Test of Written English.
- IELTS (International English Language Testing System): a minimum combined score of 7.
- BUEPT (Bogazici University English Proficiency Test): a minimum score of �C�. |
These MA programmes are very competitive. Universities, particularly good ones, do not just take anyone.
By law they cannot refuse to accept someone on the grounds that they went to a private uni. Your 8 conditions above prove that. It is all based on exam scores and 2 references.
So they too need to be convinced of a student�s ability, and more importantly, the BA is a preparation for the MA � you might score brilliantly as an engineering student but I certainly wouldn�t accept you on an anthropology MA - consequently a department's view of the undergraduate degree is significant.
That is obvious and makes no difference to the debate.
Molly, in response to your point, I agree to some extent, but I think these students are constrained or alternatively able to exercise choice in different ways. He is not so bright but wealthy so cannot attend Bosphorous university but can afford a less prestigious university. She on the other hand is poor and thus, while she scored high enough grades to enter Bosphorous uni, since she has no means to support herself, chose to go to a private where she could get living expenses.
Out of interest could you find out if she really does get living expenses. I didn`t know that private uni scholarships covered living expenses.
Similarly, with regard to your more provocative question! Yes again, in theory but there are still constraints on and choices for anyone seeking employment. Tenure in the best universities is hung on to by any savvy academic, so positions do not frequently open up, for one. I am constrained, too, for example by my subject area and by being a foreigner (there are quotas in place for positions at state universities � quotas taken up predominantly by you lot,
I imagine that few of ''you lot'' could afford to work in a state uni. |
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ImanH
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 214
Location: Istanbul
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| But still a state uni costs nothing. |
Sorry reading back I realised I should have made it clearer - in her case all her fees are waived.
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| By law they cannot refuse to accept someone on the grounds that they went to a private uni. |
Of course not; who said they did? However, neither does a student automatically get accepted simply because they fulfil certain criteria, particularly for spots on MAs in such highly competitive universities as METU or Bosphorous. To quote METU for instance
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| The applications will be evaluated by the Departments after examining the related documents. |
This is why I would argue that contrary to what you suggested it is absolutely relevant to the debate that
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| So they too need to be convinced of a student�s ability, and more importantly, the BA is a preparation for the MA � you might score brilliantly as an engineering student but I certainly wouldn�t accept you on an anthropology MA - consequently a department's view of the undergraduate degree is significant. |
In appraising a student�s academic worthiness to attend an MA what is very important (in fact I would argue most crucial) is not simply what they scored in an exam but their preparation for a higher degree - that preparation being successfully completing a relevant BA. If a BA is genuinely considered worthless then one would expect that application to get tossed in the bin - in the same way as you suggest that no one would give you a job if you had a degree from a private university.
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| Out of interest could you find out if she really does get living expenses. I didn`t know that private uni scholarships covered living expenses. |
Absolutely they do. Have a look at Fatih's site where they list these. Sabanci too, I think.
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| I imagine that few of ''you lot'' could afford to work in a state uni. |
The reference to "you lot" was meant as tongue-in-cheek - I hope it didn't offend anyone. Apologies if it did. And yes, since as a foreigner you get paid on a different salary scale than local staff I imagine one would be able to afford to work in a state university. Is there anyone on the forum who does who can comment?
Edited to add - Molly I agree with your comments. Sadly it's increasingly that way too in the UK with the abolishment of grants and now the introduction of tuition fees
Last edited by ImanH on Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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31
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 1797
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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The reference to "you lot" was meant as tongue-in-cheek - I hope it didn't offend anyone. Apologies if it did. And yes, since as a foreigner you get paid on a different salary scale than local staff I imagine one would be able to afford to work in a state university. Is there anyone on the forum who does who can comment?
The only Turkish state university that pays anything like a decent wage to EFL teachers is of course ITU. Since this is Dave`s ESL cafe and not Dave`s academia cafe it is unlikely that anyone will be able to comment. I know a few efl teachers who work at state unis like Kaysri uni and Yildiz Teknik and of course Bosphorous but they earn a bit more than their local counterparts but it isn`t really enough to attract well qualified people.
Had a look at the Yeditepe site and loved the translation of ''rektorlugu'''
Have a look and spot the Turklish. |
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ImanH
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 214
Location: Istanbul
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| 31 wrote: |
| Since this is Dave`s ESL cafe and not Dave`s academia cafe it is unlikely that anyone will be able to comment. |
I was addressing my question to ESL teachers at the state universities.
You have answered it now.
Either way, it's immaterial to the debate. |
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molly farquharson
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 839
Location: istanbul
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Does ITU pay better than Koc? I know a few people who teach at ITU and they seem pretty happy with it, have been there for a few years.
I don't know why you would assume, 31, that people who teach in the univs wd not read Dave's. I know people who do. |
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31
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 1797
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| molly farquharson wrote: |
Does ITU pay better than Koc? I know a few people who teach at ITU and they seem pretty happy with it, have been there for a few years.
Of course it doesn`t pay better than ITU. It pays 1000 dollars a month unless it has changed and there are a few testing/coordinator positions that pay 1200. ITU seems to have a fairly stable, happy bunch of teachers and perhaps that is because the students are nice and the holidays are great. They also pay and arrange work permits and are straight as far as obeying the labour laws.
I don't know why you would assume, 31, that people who teach in the univs wd not read Dave's. I know people who do. |
I meant that there are relatively few native speakers who work in state unis apart from ITU where they mostly work in prep. People outside EFL like Iman H are rare in state unis. Of course this is because of the poor salaries that we all know local lecturers endure. |
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molly farquharson
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 839
Location: istanbul
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| I know quite a few foreigners who are not teaching English, but true, they are at the private univs. I knew some Italians who taught at Ist. Univ. but their govt paid them, and beaucoup bucks. |
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31
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 1797
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| molly farquharson wrote: |
| I know quite a few foreigners who are not teaching English, but true, they are at the private univs. I knew some Italians who taught at Ist. Univ. but their govt paid them, and beaucoup bucks. |
Yeah. EFl- there aren`t a lot of options. |
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boundforsaudi
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 243
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