Job Discussion Forums

[Paul John]

First of all, two meetings are scheduled for tomorrow (Friday, September 9th).

VATC will hold a meeting at their Cach Mang Thang 8 branch at 9:00 AM to discuss the income tax issues. The principal, Mr Phan will attend. It might a good place to get some answers.

Also, a teacher�s meeting will be held at 12 o�clock noon at the big restaurant on the corner of NTMK and CMT8 to discuss a number of issues that VATC teachers may have. This is not directly connected with lizarddoctor�s recent posts, but I�m sure the issues he has raised will be discussed. I think it would be a good idea for any teachers who have issues with VATC or are concerned about the points LD has raised to attend.

I plan to attend both meetings � I�ll post a short report on each of them here as soon as I can.

The main reason I�m posting here is that as a long-term contracted VATC teacher I�m extremely concerned about the allegations that lizarddoctor has made. They have treated me very well and the few complaints I have center around pay rate issues and minor issues related to specific branches. However, if VATC really are ripping their teachers off, I would like to know about it. Although LD has leveled a number of serious charges against the VATC management. his postings have been short on specificity. I�ve also asked around the various branches that I�ve worked at, but haven�t been able to get much in the way of solid facts to back up what LD has claimed. I know of only two teachers who were taxed at a higher rate (both uncontracted, both were taxed at around 20%, but neither of them said that it was for back taxes).

Lizarddoctor, can you answer some questions for me? I realize that you may want to protect individuals, so I�m not asking you to name names.

1.You claim to have received over 30 e-mails supporting your charges against VATC. Bearing in mind that VATC have about 100 contracted and uncontracted teachers in total, this is a huge proportion. Exactly how many teachers do you know of who have had back-taxes deducted? For that matter, if teachers *are* being back-taxed, is this actually illegal in Vietnam?
2.Are teachers actually being back-taxed? I mean, was this stated either on their pay envelopes or verbally when the teachers concerned received their pay? Or is this only happening to uncontracted teachers. It�s been reported on several forums that SITC, for example, tax their uncontracted teachers at 25%. I�ve heard from several sources that VN government policy is to tax casual (uncontracted) teachers at a higher rate in order to crack down on the number of teachers who stay under the tax threshold by working for multiple schools.
3.What sort of numbers are we talking about here, both individually and in total? Is it just a few dollars here and there, or are we talking in terms of hundreds of dollars. For the teachers that you know about, how much tax were they charged on average?
4.VATC is largely a franchise operation. Only three of the branches (NTMK, DBP and CMT8) are actually owned by VATC itself � the rest are owned by people who pay a fee for the use of the VATC name. Each branch is responsible for paying the teachers who work at that branch. As a result, I (like most teachers here) receive three or four different pay packets each payday. Which leads me to my next question: which branches are guilty overtaxing teachers? Is this a VATC-wide thing or restricted to a few branches?
5.I�ve been approached by the Thu Duc director several times to work out there. Each time, I�ve given him a firm, but polite, �no�. The guy is pushy and persistent, I�ll grant you that, and I�m sure he�ll ask me again next time he sees me. Has he threatened to have any other teachers fired for not working there besides you? If it�s a pattern thing, he�ll never get anybody to work there and I can�t imagine VATC management condoning actions like that in any case.

As I said before, I personally have no serious issues at VATC. I�ve been teaching there for two years now, and fulltime for 18 months. Although I�ve worked at schools that pay more per hour, the level of hours that I�ve worked there has remained remarkably steady throughout the year. My bottom line (i.e. total earnings for the year) is better at VATC than any other school I�ve worked at. I�ve pretty much decided to commit myself to the school. If the issues that you have raised are true, I�ll reassess my position. But I need some solid answers first.

Finally � I am only a teacher at VATC. I'm not posting this on behalf of anyone but myself.

[* edited 9/9 - minor typo fixed. PJ]

[lizarddoctor]

I would like to answer your questions one by one Paul John and let you know that my current dialog with the ESL community and VATC HCMC is a legit complaint and I took action as I saw fit. If my allegations were false, then Dr. Bao and now VATC staff members wouldn't even be trying to defend the school with such seriousness. Even in Dr. Bao's replies there is an admission of guilt. I will try to keep this direct for the general audience and yes, I feel the need to protect the many identities of the many individuals who I have been in contact with by e-mail, by phone (daily I might add) and in person. These individuals are both of the affected by 'back tax' and the full time staff, both are giving me information that is current and up to date. I try to leave out any of their opinions unless they are my own.

1. I stated that I have received over 30 emails, I cannot state how many individuals as this issue has become very heated in different ways on all 3 forum threads. But lets say its more than 1 and less than 100 teachers I have talked to. And yes, I have confirmation from a Vietnamese Manager of a Foreign Company in HCMC and a VATC staff member talked with PriceWaterHouse Coppers directly and they confirmed the 'back tax' is illegal.

2. This is happening sporadically to teachers, one teacher yes, another no, a third full timer paying around 1,000,000 VND tax on nearly 28,000,000 VND earned in a month when that number should be much closer to 3,000,000 VND per month. I have made 25,000,000 VND in one month from one school and around 3,000,000 VND should be the tax depending on the exchange rate at the time of pay. Something isn't right here.

3. Nearly as much as a full time contracted employee with nearly 1 fifth less hours. I think VATC thought it could clean house and fill its 'tax due coffers' at the same time. They do owe nearly 1.5 billion VND to the government and I'm sure that they do not want it to come out of their pockets. (my opinion of course)

4. The NTMK and the DBP branches are guilty. I talked with some VATC teachers and rode to one of the above branches with a teacher as they were picking up their pay. When they came out, they were furious and I saw the 'tax receipt' for myself. VATC is guilty therefore under review. If the other branches are not affiliated directly to the 3 branches you mentioned, could you tell me why VATC would not renegotiate their contract during my interview to only include the district 5, 10, 3, CMT8, and DBP branches. I was told that if they wanted me to go to Go Vap or district 4 then I had to. That is why i gave them their contracts back and said forget it.

5. I was also present at a threat from the Thu Duc manager toward a teacher who said no a few times. He told him that this was Vietnam and that 'the teacher' didn't know how Vietnam worked. You work for VATC. The manager continued to say that it didn't look like he (the teacher) wanted to stay in Vietnam much longer. If these branches are not affiliated, then why would a director feel that he had the power to try and pressure a teacher into working for him that had told him no on so many occasions?

Thank you for your post as I was very interested in another point of view from a VATC worker who was treated well by VATC. Sir Ray made reference on my forum to a golden goose and contracted benefits of teachers signing it. Then he turned into a wild boar and started slinging mud. I suppose I did provoke it, but the fact that the VATC Staff and Dr. Bao himself registered on the site to defend themselves only proves my point that something there is amiss and I took the right course of action toward them. I hope this was helpful, feel free to send me a pm or an email if you would like to discuss this in private, but I cant give out any personal details as my information has been collected in good faith.

[lizarddoctor]

I would like to answer your questions one by one Paul John and let you know that my current dialog with the ESL community and VATC HCMC is a legit complaint and I took action as I saw fit. If my allegations were false, then Dr. Bao and now VATC staff members wouldn't even be trying to defend the school with such seriousness. Even in Dr. Bao's replies there is an admission of guilt. I will try to keep this direct for the general audience and yes, I feel the need to protect the many identities of the many individuals who I have been in contact with by e-mail, by phone (daily I might add) and in person. These individuals are both of the affected by 'back tax' and the full time staff, both are giving me information that is current and up to date. I try to leave out any of their opinions unless they are my own.

1. I stated that I have received over 30 emails, I cannot state how many individuals as this issue has become very heated in different ways on all 3 forum threads. But lets say its more than 1 and less than 100 teachers I have talked to. And yes, I have confirmation from a Vietnamese Manager of a Foreign Company in HCMC and a VATC staff member talked with PriceWaterHouse Coppers directly and they confirmed the 'back tax' is illegal.

2. This is happening sporadically to teachers, one teacher yes, another no, a third full timer paying around 1,000,000 VND tax on nearly 28,000,000 VND earned in a month when that number should be much closer to 3,000,000 VND per month. I have made 25,000,000 VND in one month from one school and around 3,000,000 VND should be the tax depending on the exchange rate at the time of pay. Something isn't right here.

3. Nearly as much as a full time contracted employee with nearly 1 fifth less hours. I think VATC thought it could clean house and fill its 'tax due coffers' at the same time. They due owe nearly 1.5 billion VND to the government and I'm sure that they do not want it to come out of their pockets. (my opinion of course)

4. The NTMK and the DBP branches are guilty. I talked with some VATC teachers and rode to one of the above branches with a teachers as they were picking up their pay. When they came out, they were furious and I saw the 'tax receipt' for myself. VATC is guilty therefore under review. If the other branches are not affiliated directly to the 3 branches you mentioned, could you tell me why VATC would not renegotiate their contract during my interview to only include the district 5, 10, 3, CMT8, and DBP branches. I was told that if they wanted me to go to Go Vap or district 4 then I had to. That is why i gave them their contracts back and said forget it.

5. I was also present at a threat from the Thu Duc manager toward a teacher who said no a few times. He told him that this was Vietnam and that 'the teacher' didn't know how Vietnam worked. You work for VATC. The manager continued to say that it didn't look like he (the teacher) wanted to stay in Vietnam much longer. If these branches are not affiliated, then why would a director feel that he had the power to try and pressure a teacher into working for him that had told him no on so many occasions?

Thank you for your post as I was very interested in another point of view from a VATC worker who was treated well by VATC. Sir Ray made reference on my forum to a golden goose and contracted benefits of teachers signing it. Then he turned into a wild boar and started slinging mud. I suppose I did provoke it, but the fact that the VATC Staff and Dr. Bao himself registered on the site to defend themselves only proves my point that something there is amiss and I took the right course of action toward them. I hope this was helpful, feel free to send me a pm or an email if you would like to discuss this in private, but I cant give out any personal details as my information has been collected in good faith.

[Tanker]

The VATC representative said at the meeting the money taken would be returned.

When does he plan on returning it to the teachers?

It is easy to say that he will return the unfairly and illegally taken money.


Actually returning the money may not be so easy.


Where is the money?

Was it already sent to the government?

Is it sitting in a bank account?

Was it spent on other things?


The parties involved should stay focused on this issue.

[sigmoid]

Well, let's face it folks. Neither the government nor the schools seem particularly interested in even attempting to attract or retain good quality teachers, or any teachers for that matter.

Shall we simply give the whole place a miss then?

[lizarddoctor]

They are trying to clean up the system around here. Its just that some of the schools are so used to conducting business as they see fit, that they get an invincible chip on their shoulder. There are some wonderful places to be an ESL professional in HCMC. Shouldn't let one bad apple represent the whole barrel.

But in regards to the 'back tax' issue and VATC as posted on www.mekongesl.com

I appears that VATC has unconditionally paid back all taxes taken from teachers. Though I don't have it posted, vnexpress does have an article on VATC and RMIT concerning the tax dept and taxes being applied to 'service' teachers starting in Sept. but its in Vietnamese. My focus was the 'back tax' taken from hours worked all the way back into July being illegal, and yes, I was and am still correct as to that action taken by VATC was illegal. I have locked my forum topic in regards to the back tax, but I'm sure that others want to offer there opinions in regards to the issue. Feel free to start another topic, but this one has been put to bed on my site.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

It is both refreshing & encouraging to see a TEFL website

(and its webmaster!) taking a stand for teachers

as opposed to just b.i.t.c.h.i.n.g.

My hat's off to lizarddoctor.


Well done !



T G I F !

[sigmoid]